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TalkBack Live

The Battle Over Elian Gonzalez: Court Reprieve Keeps Boy in U.S.; Juan Miguel Gonzalez Waiting

Aired April 14, 2000 - 3:00 p.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe that he should be granted political asylum just as the two other men that arrived with him on the U.S. shores.

GREGORY CRAIG, ATTORNEY FOR JUAN MIGUEL GONZALEZ: The law must be respected, and the attorney general must enforce the law. Elian Gonzalez must be returned to his father.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: A court reprieve keeps Elian Gonzalez in the United States for the time being. And while the INS has custody, it has not taken possession. Juan Miguel Gonzalez is still waiting to see his son.

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

We will get to the Elian Gonzalez case in just a minute, but first, stocks are taking a beating on Wall Street today. A major sell-off is under way. So let's find out what's happening from CNN's Myron Kandel.

Mike, what is going on?

MYRON KANDEL, CNN FINANCIAL EDITOR: Bobbie, it's a really grim day on Wall Street, the Dow Jones industrial average now down 500 points. It was even down more than that a few minutes ago. The Nasdaq composite is down 288 points.

There's the board of the New York Stock Exchange showing 499 points down on the Dow. There's a major sell-off under way across the board. The only consolation is volume on the New York at least is not extremely heavy, just about a billion shares traded. And by recent standards, that's not panicky selling, which may indicate that there isn't any panic on the -- at least on those blue chip stocks that make up the New York Stock Exchange listing.

The Nasdaq has traded about two billion shares, and that's pretty heavy volume. So those tech stocks that make up the Nasdaq are getting hit hard again today. They're down more than 1,000 points this week alone. That's a loss of 20 percent in just five days. I've never seen a drop this steep in such a short time, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: And another hour of trading still to go, Mike. I would assume, though, that you do not think any circuit breakers will have to be activated here?

KANDEL: Well, not yet, Bobbie. And don't forget, these prices are way up. Just -- perhaps if we do look, one, on the light side, the Nasdaq, despite the big hit that it's taken, down 33 percent in one month, is still 40 percent higher than it was last year at this time. So that's not very much consolation for those who bought in more recently, but over the long term the Nasdaq had that huge increase. It's given back a big chunk of those gains, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: And very quickly, Mike, what are stocks reacting to this week or today? What's going on out there? Why is it so volatile?

KANDEL: You know, in politics they call it momentum, "big mo." Well, the momentum was on the upside for the last -- most of this year for both -- particularly for the Nasdaq. And now the momentum is on the downside. And today it got some bad news on inflation. The consumer price index came in for the month of March at an increase of seven-tenths of one percent, well above what economists were expecting, and that raises the fear of inflation once again. We hadn't heard about inflation in any recent time. Now they're beginning to worry about that. They're thinking that maybe one or two more increases in interest rates by the Federal Reserve may not be the last for this year. So there's a lot of concern on Wall Street right now. The sellers certainly in command over the buyers.

BATTISTA: All right, Myron Kandel, thanks very much for that -- I think thanks very much for that economics lesson today. Of course, "STREET SWEEP" at 4:00 p.m. on CNN will have more and a market wrap for you.

Now, how long can Elian Gonzalez be tied to the United States with legal red tape? That is one of the questions that we're asking on TALKBACK LIVE today. And here to help us unravel some of the legal conundrums is CNN legal analyst and co-host of CNN's "BURDEN OF PROOF" Greta Van Susteren.

Greta, are you there? There you are.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I am here, Bobbie.

And Dale Schwartz, an immigration attorney and member of the bar of the United States Supreme Court.

Dale, nice to have you with us as well.

Greta, let me start with you. This -- for lack of a better term, this really has become a legal rat's nest in the last 24 hours or so.

VAN SUSTEREN: That's probably a good term, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: OK, good. I'm sticking with it then. All right, let's start with the injunction that was filed yesterday by the Miami relatives. What did that ask for or block?

VAN SUSTEREN: Well, first we have to understand is that about a month ago, a federal judge said that the attorney general of the United States has the authority to make a decision, whether to grant an asylum hearing or not. And, of course, she has decided not to grant the asylum hearing because the child's father does not want one.

The family in Miami appealed that order to the U.S. Court of Appeals. But even though it appealed it, it's still a hot order. It's still in effect, and the attorney general could have come in, taken the child and sent the child back to Cuba with the father. So what the family did yesterday was to block the effect of the trial court order. They asked for an injunction or a stay, just to put that trial court order on hold until the U.S. Court of Appeals can review that decision to see if that's a correct decision.

What the court did with one judge -- usually decisions are made by three judge, but this was an emergency proceeding -- the judge said, look, just listening to one side of the story, the family, in this emergency motion filed yesterday, I'm going to put this on hold until 9:30 tomorrow, meaning today, so that the government could respond. Then after today that they'll have three judges make a decision whether to put it on hold until the court hears the underlying appeal, which is where the attorney general is the one who speaks on the issue of asylum or not. And that's going to be heard later in May.

So the issue now is, now that the court has the filings from both sides -- there's actually going to be another filing from the family later today -- three judges will make a decision. Do we take that order that's active from the trial court judge but under appeal, do we take that order and put it on hold until we can decide whether that order is the right one or the wrong one? And that's where we stand. We don't know if it will be put on hold. But the government, of course, has filed a motion offering some sort of suggestion about how they can resolve it in the short term until the ultimate decision can be made on the appeal.

BATTISTA: Well, that just straightens out everything for me.

VAN SUSTEREN: I hope.

BATTISTA: Dale, could the family have filed that injunction at any time? I mean, why did they wait until the last minute yesterday and invoke an emergency injunction?

DALE SCHWARTZ, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: Well, you know, the attorney general had give given them until a certain time to turn Elian over to her. And I believe that they felt that that was imminently going to happen, and that's why they rushed into court to do that.

I also think it's important to note -- and I think Greta was eminently correct in everything she said -- but the one thing that injunction does not do is say who Elian stays with in the meantime, even if the court continues the injunction. We could conceivably hear as recently -- as soon as this afternoon what this three-judge panel is going to do. If they dissolve the injunction, then the attorney general and the Immigration Service have the legal right under our laws to pick up Elian and decide that he should be in someone else's custody, and they're likely to give him to his father. If that happens and he goes back to Cuba, then the case in the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals really is moot, because whether or not Elian can file a political asylum claim would be moot if he left the United States.

Most judges don't like to have the rug pulled out from underneath them, so to speak, by one of the parties in a case without giving them an opportunity to have their day in court, so I would not be -- I won't bet on this one way or the other, but I would not be surprised if the court didn't continue the injunction at least until the hearing in May.

BATTISTA: So legally speaking, Greta, the INS could go right now if they wanted to and take possession, if you will, of Elian?

VAN SUSTEREN: That's right. Actually -- here's the way the law actually reads is the attorney general has custody of this child by virtue of the fact of this order from a trial court. She doesn't have physical custody. The physical custody is in the hands of the family in Miami, but technically she has custody. The only thing the one judge said in the U.S. Court of Appeals is that the child cannot leave the United States. That means the attorney general could show up on the steps of that home today, right now, and take that child and not violate the court order. It's only if that child attempts to leave the country is there a violation of the court order.

BATTISTA: And let me just complicate this even further. There was some sort of civil action that was filed today on top of all of this, Dale?

SCHWARTZ: I haven't had a chance to...

BATTISTA: Oh, you haven't heard that one? OK, that was just a couple hours ago, wasn't it?

VAN SUSTEREN: That's in my neck of the woods. That's down the street from our CNN bureau in Washington at federal court. And that was filed on behalf of the family again. And actually, Lazaro the great-uncle filed -- it was called next of friend -- as Elian's sort of next of friend -- it's a legal term. And they have filed it saying, look, there are violations of the human rights treaties, and if you send that boy back to Cuba, he's going to get into all sorts of problems back in Cuba. And for that reason, we've got to put it on hold. We need a temporary restraining order.

So basically they're attacking on all fronts, which good lawyers do. You know, you attack on every single front that you can to try to win whatever you're trying to achieve.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break here, and as we do you can take part in our TALKBACK LIVE online poll at CNN.com/talkback. The question today: Should Elian be immediately reunited with his father? We will check the results later this hour. We'll take a break. As we do, we'll keep the Dow and the Nasdaq averages up there for you so you can keep an eye on the stock market.

We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Juan Miguel Gonzalez's father was one of eight siblings, five of whom fled Cuba for the U.S. Elian's grandfather chose to stay in Cuba. His uncle, Lazaro Gonzalez, visited the family in 1998, which was the only time he had met Elian before last December.

We are back with just a few more legal questions before we leave this topic, but Dale, the bottom line here, has any of this legal wrangling undermined the attorney general's original ruling or decision? Or is that still stand through all of that?

SCHWARTZ: It still stands. And the attorney general, basically, has ruled, as Greta said before, that on -- the boy has a right to apply for political asylum but he's too young to do that himself. So the question is who is his guardian? Who is his legal guardian that can make that application for him? And the attorney general has ruled that's his father. The court in Miami said we have no right to go behind that decision. So that is the issue that's on appeal to the 11th circuit.

Now, there is precedent for friends or next friends or guardians of minors from other countries who have been granted political asylum to stay in the United States, even against both of their parents' wishes. There's some cases where parents have gone back to -- in the days of the Cold War, went back to Soviet bloc nations and left a young child behind because somebody had applied for and obtained political asylum for him.

So, Elian's really never had his so-called day in court because his father has, of course, refused to allow him to make that application.

BATTISTA: Greta, there's going to probably -- well, there already is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on of the attorney general. Do you think that she handled this in the best way that she could considering she's in a really difficult position, I think? Or do you think that she's ended up sort of making the Justice Department look indecisive and timid.

VAN SUSTEREN: I tell you, Bobbie, I always thought it would be fun to be the attorney general of the United States, and not today, and not recently.

I mean, this is a tough decision. This is really a no-win situation. If she sends the child back with the father, which she believes to be the law, then, of course, the people in Miami are going to be very unhappy. If she kept the child here, a lot of other people would be very unhappy. Look, it's a very unpopular job. Being a prosecutor, she's is chief prosecutor in the country is not a popular job. I always thought it was fun and interesting, but this is one time I am happy that it's not my job.

BATTISTA: Again, just to refresh our memory before we leave, the legal aspects of this, Dale, the decision we're waiting for now is from that three-judge panel, and that will be the final decision on all of these injunctions and civil actions and that sort of thing.

SCHWARTZ: Well, if the three-judge panel continues the injunction until the case is over, that will keep everything in status quo for awhile longer. If they dissolve that injunction, I think that Elian's -- or the relatives' lawyers would be able to ask the Supreme Court to issue a stay or an injunction, but it's not likely that they'll obtain that from them.

BATTISTA: And Greta, how fast do you think they'll make the decision, the three-judge panel?

VAN SUSTEREN: Well, let me tell you something -- the fact that the filing deadline is tonight at 9:00 p.m. means judges are working past 4:30. I tell you, federal judges don't often work those late hours. So my guess is a 9:00 p.m. filing deadline means their working, and that we could have a decision as early as this evening about whether or not they'll dissolve the injunction.

And what Dale said is that judges typically don't like to allow their orders to somehow be thwarted by the fact that the child could go back to Cuba before they could decide the case. But of the problems, and Dale I think will probably agree with me on this, is that one of the factors the judges must consider in whether to grant this continued injunction is whether or not the family in Miami is likely to win on the merits of the original appeal.

And if they take a look at the law and say, look, we are so certain, an even at this preliminary point, that Attorney General Janet Reno was right and that the federal trial court was right, then they cannot, by law, issue that injunction even though they'd like to put it on hold for a little while. So, you know, this can go either way. We could have a decision at 9:05 tonight. There's no way -- lawyers have deadlines, judges don't.

BATTISTA: OK. Greta Van Susteren and Dale Schwartz thank you both very much, appreciate your time and for clearing all of that up for us.

SCHWARTZ: You're welcome, thank you.

BATTISTA: We'll take a break here. And in a moment, we'll have reaction to that controversial videotape of Elian's message to his father. We'll talk with psychologist Joy Brown, back after this.

My name is Willie from American University. I think the U.S. should stop demonizing Cuba. It's dishonest, unfair and after 40 years, downright pathetic. Elian belongs with his father.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Fidel Castro personally saw Juan Miguel Gonzalez and his family off from the Jose Marti Airport in Cuba. He waived diplomatic immunity at Cuba's Washington outpost to make the point that Gonzalez would be free to defect if he wished.

Welcome back.

Yesterday we played a videotape released by Elian's Miami relatives. In it, the boy says he does not want to return Cuba. The family says the tape was recorded late Wednesday night after negotiations with the Justice Department broke down. It shows Elian on a bed, looking into the camera and delivering a message to his father. It is not clear who was in the room with Elian or whether the boy was coached. We're going to play that tape again, as received by the Spanish language network Univision, and translated by CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIAN GONZALEZ (through translator): Dad, I do not want to go to Cuba. If you want to, stay here. I am not going to Cuba.

Dad, you saw that older woman that came to the sister's house. She wants to see me back in Cuba. I tell them -- I am telling you -- you are saying that I want to return to Cuba, but I am telling you now that I do not want to go to Cuba. If you would like, stay here. But I do not want to go to Cuba.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Again, that was a videotaped released to Univision by the boy's Miami relatives. Again, they say they released the tape so the boy's feelings on the issue could be heard. But not everyone sees it that way. Joining us now is Joy Browne, a psychologist and syndicated talk show host on WOR in New York.

Joy, thanks for joining us today.

JOY BROWNE, PSYCHOLOGIST: My pleasure, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: You know, regardless how you feel about whether Elian should stay or go back to Cuba, I think that tape certainly raised a bunch of ethical questions. It was rather astonishing, in certain respects, to see it.

BROWNE: Absolutely.

BATTISTA: I -- was it a legitimate at the time to give this little boy a voice, have his voice be heard, or was it just exploitative?

BROWNE: First of all, I think that it happened in a custody case with a husband and wife that the judge would have very likely chastised whoever brought it if into court. First of all, we usually don't have 6-year-olds testify, number one. Number two, I think there's no question that the child was not particularly stressed. He was sitting in what we used to call a cobbler's position. He was very relaxed. There's no doubt that he was coached. If nothing else, his eye contact sort of moved around. I don't know this child. I don't know that this is a gesture he uses all the time. But if I had to guess, I don't think that's necessarily a gesture -- there was no sense of authenticity or emotion about that as much as a child playing a role.

I was made, to be quite honest, as a parent and as a psychologist fairly nauseous by it. The idea this had anything do with Elian as opposed to politics is completely ludicrous.

BATTISTA: There were close to the situation, Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin for one, yesterday suggested that Elian has a very strong and understandable fear of going back to Cuba because he thinks that he may has to go back on a raft.

BROWNE: Sure.

BATTISTA: And that he may be angry -- he may think that his father is angry at him because his mother is dead, and he witnessed that. I mean, are these legitimate concerns that should be read into this?

BROWNE: Not only that, but I think we have the idea that this child has really not seen his father for four months. And presumably, the last time he saw his father is when he left Cuba. We know that 6- year-olds are capable of what we call "magical thinking," completely dismissing data and believing whatever they want to believe. And I think that the four months in Miami probably seems in a lot of ways very unreal to this child. And I think bringing daddy back into the picture brings up some of those memories, but certainly if the child's only experience with coming from Cuba to the United States has been on a raft, where mom drowned, the idea of going back -- it may even be that if he feels that if he goes back with his father, his father will drown.

It seems to me -- you know, talked with lawyers before, and I am a psychologist, but as you can imagine, I get into this a lot -- that somebody should have appointed a guardian ad litem for this child on day two, so there was somebody watching specifically for the child's issues, rather than the father's or the relatives.

BATTISTA: Rather than just give blanket custody to relatives nobody really knew.

Let me take a call from Eduardo in California -- go ahead.

EDUARDO: Hi.

I'd like to make two points at this time. The first is that the film tells me that this boy, either knowingly or inadvertently, is being brainwashed against his own father. And as traumatic as sending marshals and take him out of the house is, I think he needs to be taken out of there right away, because each day and week that passes I think increases the bigger tragedy that he goes to have permanent alienation from his own father.

And if I could say one other thing. I grew up in Miami. The potential for violence to the father is much greater than the mayor is willing to admit. There's a paramilitary training camp out on Chrome Avenue, it's been reported in "the Miami Herald," thousands of Cubans have trained with automatic weapons, sniping rifles, and the Cuban- American National Foundation has been connected, "The New York Times" reports, to known terrorists, such as Louis Paseda Cadillas (ph). The family knows this, and yet they're still insisting that the father come down there to be with his son. I think that's cruel and disingenuous.

BATTISTA: All right, Eduardo, thanks. Of course, we have no way of substantiating what Eduardo just said there at this time.

Joy, one of the questions that gets raised in our audience is, is, you know, what does Elian think about the situation? What does the little boy think? I mean, should he be evaluated and his opinion considered in this decision?

BROWNE: Evaluated, no question. But anyone who deals with children this age, especially in the custody battle, knows that direct questioning is usually very ineffective. Children feel very conflicted. You don't even need to understand in a custody battle when you have a mom and dad who don't agree, that the child feels conflicted. Certainly evaluation I think is important.

And it would seem to me -- I mean, the issue about sending in the National Guard to take snatch the kid makes my stomach hurt as well, so send in Snow White, send in nuns, send in a bunch of dwarfs. I mean, I don't think this has to be macho city. But I mean, we have so many models for this kind of think. The idea that a foster parent -- and there's no question in my mind about the sincerity of the Miami relative's feelings toward Elian. But the idea that somehow people can temporarily take a child, and when the biological parent, for whatever reason, says OK, I want the child back that they're allowed to sort, of say well, we're the ones who are going to decide what's best for the child. I mean, this would not be allowed under any other circumstances. It's shocking in many ways.

Not to mention we have got a group of people who are saying the United States is a better place to be because it's a country of laws, yet they're putting themselves above the law. I think this has really gotten out of hand.

BATTISTA: Let me go to our audience quickly -- Susan.

SUSAN: Today was the first time I saw the videotape, and my initial reaction was this was a desperate attempt by the family in Miami to keep Elian here in the United States, and it was a very poor attempt, but I think they're trying anything they can do. We're dealing with a communist country here, and they...

BATTISTA: I have to say, I don't think the attorneys for the family would deny that they were very tired, apparently, when they did this, and they were very anxious and under a lot of stress. Maybe they just didn't make the best decision in the world.

Let me go over here to Linda. LINDA: Well, my view is that anyone that has children knows that a 6-year-old cannot make decisions for themselves. That's what their parents are for. Why are we even listening to what a 6-year-old says? If both parents were here in the United States and the mother died, the father would have custody of that child. There would, for the most part, be no discussion.

BATTISTA: You know, also, there has been a lot of talk about how traumatic it would be to separate Elian from his primary caretaker down in Miami, Marisleysis.

What do you think, Joy? Would that -- how traumatic would that be and how long would it take for him to assimilate that?

BROWNE: Bobbie, if it were to me that there would be somehow the father and the family come together, perhaps not in Miami, if there's a real threat there, but again, if we look at a mother and a father -- what I would like to reassure, hopefully with the government's permission, the families in Miami is that this -- I think they may feel at this moment that if Elian goes back to his father they'll never see this child again, and they love this child. So the idea being that there somehow could be some coming together that they would not be permitted from ever seeing the child again, that they could have a relationship with the child.

But I think that certainly, my concern is not only who Elian would be with, but the next time he's with his father and the father says: OK, it's time for bed, he says I am going back to the United States. I mean, this child, I think is going to have some adjustment problems.

And the sooner the adjustment I think is made -- But again, if the family, if the people who love this child could come together and remember that what they are trying to do is what's best for the child that would help a lot.

BATTISTA: Absolutely, Joy Browns, thanks very much for your insight today. Appreciate your time.

BROWNE: My pleasure, Bobbie, good to see you.

BATTISTA: You too. Coming up in just a moment: Elian, a political symbol. Radio rumblings with talk show host Blanquita Cullum and Sam Greenfield right after this.

JEN: Hi, my name is Jen, at American University. After viewing the tape of Elian, it's obvious to me that he was coached to say that he wanted to stay in America.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)`

BATTISTA: Welcome back.

And please welcome to the show Blanquita Cullum, a conservative radio talk show host for Radio America, and Sam Greenfield, host of the "Sam Greenfield Show" on news talk 1050 WEVD in New York. Sam is a former stand up comedienne we should tell you.

Welcome to both of you. Not that that means anything one way or the other Sam.

BLANQUITA CULLUM, RADIO AMERICA TALK SHOW HOST: Hi Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Hi Blanquita.

SAM GREENFIELD, WEVD RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Hi Sam.

This is something that obviously our audiences every day get pretty ginned up about the more we get into the subject, and many people are very torn by this whole issue.

Blanquita, what are your listeners talking about? How do you feel about it?

CULLUM: Well, how I feel about it is pretty much how the majority of my listeners feel. We took a poll yesterday as well, and 79 percent of the people that listen to the radio program believe that Elian should stay in this country. The other remaining thought he should be returned back to Cuba.

I think it's a much more complicated issue. I thought it was interesting to notice that on the show there was a statement by Fidel Castro that said Elian's father would have the opportunity to defect and that's actually clearly not the case.

What has happened, when Elian's father met with Janet Reno, he was never given his rights, he was never told his rights that he could defect with protection from this country. IN fact, the leadership...

BATTISTA: But if he want to defect, Blanquita, wouldn't he just -- I mean, it's not like he has to be told he has that right, if he wants to defect, he will defect right?

CULLUM: No, that's not the case, and let me point out what happened. Clearly, the members of the House of Representatives, Tom DeLay, Dick Armey and several other members of the House felt that he didn't know that he would have the protection. They wanted to set up a safe meeting with him in the Congress. They delivered a letter to his home where he is staying in Bethesda.

And when they took the letter, they were not allowed to give it to him directly. The communist security agent, the Cuban agent who was at the door said that he could not come to the door to receive it, it was about 5:30 in the afternoon. They were told he was sleeping. He actually never even opened the letter directly himself. They opened it to consider that this man understand or is capable of defecting, he's not able to do that. His family is being held at a compound in Havana.

Clearly, it is a very difficult situation, and I think this country has to recognize that it's a much more complicated issue. Yes parental rights are involved, but certainly there are other elements here of while Fidel Castro is holding a G-77 summit in Cuba with Muammar Qadhafi, Yasser Arafat, the Nigerian president, waiting to welcome this child under a $2 million arch to show that this country has been brought to its knees, and here is the next little Che Guevara. I think we need to look at that.

BATTISTA: Let me get Sam in on this.

GREENFIELD: I think it's about three things. Number one, it's about the fact that Castro is the head of Cuba. That's what this is about, primarily. If this kid had washed up in Santa Barbara and he was Haitian, he would be back before he dried off. That's number one.

Number two, the family is being manipulated by forces in Little Havana that have nothing to do with the welfare of this child. The child belongs with his father. You know, bad countries have good families, and there is no evidence this man is a bad father.

The house he's staying in has two grand uncles who were both convicted of DUI, one of whom has two sons who are in the slam. They both chain smoke. My God, when are they going to drive the kid to school, when they leave an AA meeting? There's no chance for this kid there. He belongs with his father, just with his father.

CULLUM: If you're looking at that, for crying out loud, they should have a DNA test to prove that the father is the father. They had this child...

GREENFIELD: Oh man, come on, Blanquita, your arm hurts from the rumor mill. They are not being held in a compound. The family is not being held in a compound.

CULLUM: Who is telling you that. Fidel? Who are you learning that from Fidel?

GREENFIELD: Yeah because I'm a fellow traveler. Listen, every person who lives in Cuba knows one thing, when you're alone with a member of the United States government, they don't need to know their rights about defect, they even know how to say "I want to defect" it in English. He knows about defection. What does he have to say, "I defect...

CULLUM: Sam, I think you are very naive.

GREENFIELD: No, I'm not naive, I'm naive because Castro is this monolithic tetrahedron horrible human being, and the child shouldn't go back to his father. He should be with this lovely Robert Anderson "father knows best" enclave in Little Havana. That's where he would be safer. That is where he would he would be safer, where they stage these little videotapes, that's where this child would be safer?

CULLUM: Let me tell you, just may I respond to that, because I think it's significant. I think you have a situation with guys like Sam who think that he's going to go back and live in this ideal poor little place where maybe he gets black beans and rice. Let me tell you, that kid is going to be monitored, he is going to be brainwashed, he is going to put in a situation taken away from his father, going into almost what is considered like a Nazi youth Hitler camp.

GREENFIELD: Excuse me, hold up the horse.

CULLUM: No, no...

(CROSSTALK)

GREENFIELD: Fidel Castro never backed up railroad cars to Santiago and loaded Jewish Cubans.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: The only thing we do know is that nobody knows what's going to happen to that little boy when he goes back to Cuba. Nobody knows.

GREENFIELD: That is correct.

CULLUM: I think we do know that that young child is going to be,,,

BATTISTA: If you think Fidel Castro is manipulative, it is also quite possible to think that because all eyes are on him and because this child has become a symbol to him of victory that he might live this incredibly great life in Cuba, a privileged life.

CULLUM: What is a privileged life in a communist country?

GREENFIELD: What's a privileged life in Appalachia? What's a privileged life in Appalachia? What's a privileged life for a black child in Mississippi?

CULLUM: Let me tell you, at least -- I'll tell you what a privileged life in Appalachia is...

GREENFIELD: Please.

CULLUM: ... you have the Constitution of the United States protecting you. And you don't have a...

GREENFIELD: You can't eat the Constitution, Blanquita...

CULLUM: Let me tell you something.

GREENFIELD: ... You can't go to school with the Constitution, Blanquita.

CULLUM: I love these people who are Americans who hate America first.

BATTISTA: Hold on, hold on...

GREENFIELD: When the landlord comes around what's the guy going to do quote the Bill of Rights? No, no, no...

CULLUM: You know, if he had a Bill of Rights, he'd get his day in court.

GREENFIELD: If this kid came from any other country, any other country he'd go back.

BATTISTA: You know what? I've got to go to a commercial, so this is a good time to get somebody from the audience in.

John, go ahead.

JOHN: Yes, my point I want to make is very simple. Fidel Castro is no less disingenuous than the majority of the Cuban-American people in Miami who feel that this -- Elian Gonzalez is a tool to be used and exploited so they can have their Cuba back. That's my opinion.

CULLUM: Well, that's a bigoted remark.

GREENFIELD: Absolutely, absolutely, it's true.

CULLUM: That's a bigoted remark.

GREENFIELD: It's true.

CULLUM: That's a bigoted remark.

BATTISTA: I got to take a break.

CULLUM: These people fought for freedom to get here.

BATTISTA: I got to take a break.

GREENFIELD: They did what? They fought for freedom? They got kicked out and they came...

CULLUM: They got out. They risked their lives to get here.

GREENFIELD: They got kicked out and they came to Miami. What did they fight?

BATTISTA: We'll be back in just a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Back to our discussion on Elian. Let me ask both Sam and Blanquita, Blanquita how do you think this will all end?

CULLUM: Oh, I think it's going to be a very tragic situation either way, because frankly, what was echoed by one of the people in the audience, the Cuban-American community, who has been a very good community and been very grateful for freedom that they've enjoyed, they're being villainized. And basically, I've even looked at even the openings, the clips, the calls, the faxes, they've all been skewed to point out that Elian's fight for freedom by the community out there is looked at as wrong and that he is being victimized.

I think if he goes back to Cuba, everyone loses because the little boy is going to be brainwashed and be used as a tool, and I think it's going to be a sad thing for him. I'd rather take my chance with this young man on the cited of freedom and try to really get to his father, give him an opportunity to be able to sincerely defect and know that he'll be protected. And perhaps that would be a good way.

But, you know, we're having demonstrations here this weekend in Washington, and if we have an action taken in Cuba it's going to be kind of curious to see where the activity is going to go. Will the press cover what's going on here in Washington, or will they be covering the riots that could potentially be happening in Miami? It's oh-so convenient that it would happen this weekend, because clearly whatever happens will not get as much press coverage...

BATTISTA: Sam...

CULLUM: ... I think we all...

GREENFIELD: Yes?

CULLUM: ... have to be accountable for this.

BATTISTA: What do you think? How do you think this will end?

GREENFIELD: Well, I think it's a tremendous irony that we're talking here about what's perceived as a law-abiding community of citizens who might riot if this child is taken into the arms of his father. I don't think Castro's waiting in Havana with some kind of brain-wave machine to hurt this child. I think the child will be allowed to go back to school, assume his normal life with his father -- not his grand-uncles, his father -- and then this story should hopefully fade away. The people should go back home.

And we should face one fact that no one's talking about -- well, I'm not running for office, so I can. Cuban-Americans...

CULLUM: Thank god.

GREENFIELD: Yes, thank God, because if I won I'd really be all over the paper. And then you'd really be in hell. But the point I want to make is...

CULLUM: Yes, be serious.

GREENFIELD: No, the point I want to make is that Cuban-Americans are Cubans living in America. If Castro died and democracy came back to Cuba, they'd be gone like that.

CULLUM: Oh, you don't know that.

GREENFIELD: They live here because it's a free country...

CULLUM: You don't know that.

GREENFIELD: Oh, no...

CULLUM: You don't know that. That's outrageous.

GREENFIELD: That's exactly -- because I saw the U.S. flags being waved yesterday...

CULLUM: And that's because...

GREENFIELD: ... oh, they weren't? That's right, they were Cuban flags.

CULLUM: Oh, excuse me...

GREENFIELD: They were all Cuban flags. They are protesting...

CULLUM: And you're saying that in this country we don't have freedom of speech? We don't have the right to demonstrate?

GREENFIELD: You're the one who said they're fomenting violence, right.?

CULLUM: No, I...

GREENFIELD: Did you say they were fomenting violence?

CULLUM: No, I did not. I said if...

GREENFIELD: You didn't say violence could break out in Miami?

CULLUM: I said if -- excuse me, Mr. Liberal...

GREENFIELD: I thought you said when.

CULLUM: I think you've forgotten that when -- no, I did not. Listen, thank you.

GREENFIELD: I'm a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) liberal. Please, don't get it wrong.

CULLUM: Thank you, and I would like to point out we still have the First Amendment in this country that provides for a peaceful demonstration, right of assembly, First Amendment rights and...

GREENFIELD: Keeping a child against his will from his father? Is that in the First Amendment?

CULLUM: And obviously the child wants to stay. The child...

GREENFIELD: From that staged video? Oh, my god...

CULLUM: Excuse me -- excuse me...

GREENFIELD: Bob Hope in his dotage didn't read cue cards that badly. The kid was coached.

CULLUM: That was a cue...

GREENFIELD: The kid was coached.

CULLUM: Aren't you clever. Aren't you clever. You are still forgetting that even though... GREENFIELD: I'm extremely clever, but that's not the point here.

CULLUM: No, pardon me -- under Mr. Clinton...

BATTISTA: You must have some concerns about that videotape, though, don't you?

GREENFIELD: Oh, man.

CULLUM: You know, I...

BATTISTA: I mean, did you read that videotape as genuine? Is that what you're saying?

CULLUM: Let me tell you something. You know, all of you out there who are saying that this young child has not had his voice, these people are put in desperate straits, and they're trying to give the answers that let this little boy speak. Clearly, it was not the best way he could have done it, but what should he have done? Had a press conference to appease the masses out there of people who want to see that the boy...

BATTISTA: Why is it so easy, though, why is it so easy to say that the father is not speaking freely, but it's so easy for everyone to believe Elian is speaking...

CULLUM: Because even Janet Reno's nun that was picked by Janet Reno was clearly concerned about it and was listening to the grandmothers talking on the tape on the phone back to Cuba and were saying that the grandmothers were shaking, frightened, very frightened. She said she did not think it was in the child's best interest to go back to Cuba. We're so ready to throw this kid back...

GREENFIELD: She flipped from political pressure, Blanquita.

CULLUM: ... and forget about it.

GREENFIELD: That nun flipped like an IHOP waffle from political pressure. That's all that's about. The grandmothers want the...

CULLUM: Oh, you -- how cavalier...

GREENFIELD: ... child home.

CULLUM: ... how cavalier...

GREENFIELD: ... the grandmothers want the child home...

CULLUM: ... how cavalier...

GREENFIELD: The child was kidnapped from his father. He belongs with his father.

CULLUM: He was not kidnapped from the father.

GREENFIELD: Not with Uncle Lazaro... CULLUM: The father knew that the child was coming to this country.

GREENFIELD: ... not with the girl who is 21 years old who suffers this...

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here, quickly.

GREENFIELD: ... collapse of exhaustion.

BATTISTA: Oh, I got to take a break. I'm sorry, Brandon. We'll come back to you when we come back.

NICK: My name is Nick from American University. I think it's time for the government to stand up to the right-wing extremists from the Cuban exile community and let Elian Gonzalez be where he belongs, with his father.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right, let me get to the audience here, Brandon quickly.

BRANDON: I agree totally that this -- the whole tape was staged. But, I mean, legally, Elian should go back to Cuba. I mean there's no doubt about it. But if you really think about it, for what's good for the kid. His mother died getting him there, so there's obviously something wrong in Cuba that was just not good for him.

BATTISTA: You're torn like a lot of people are. All right, that will be the last word for today. Blanquita Cullum, Sam Greenfield, thank you both very much for being with us today.

CULLUM: Thank you.

BATTISTA: We appreciate it. And we'll see you again on Monday at 3:00 Eastern for more TALKBACK LIVE. Stay tuned for "STREET SWEEP," coming up next after TALKBACK.

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