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Who Should Be Held Accountable for the Murder of a 6-Year-Old in Michigan?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: There is plenty of blame to go around after a 6-year-old boy allegedly kills his classmate in school.

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ROBERT PICKELL, GENESEE COUNTY SHERIFF: I wonder why the psychologists and the psychiatrists in that school didn't recognize that there was a potential problem here.

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BATTISTA: Authorities say the child's mother had already been investigated for child abuse and knew the boy was living in a crack house.

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IRA RUTHERFORD, SUPERINTENDENT, BEECHER COMMUNITY SCHOOLS: I will say that we were aware that there were some problems with him.

BRENDA IDE, PARENT: Before the little boy ever set foot in the house, it should have never been -- it should have been shut down. They knew there was drugs in there.

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BATTISTA: The school won't release records, but the boy's father says his son had been suspended for fighting and stabbing another student with a pencil.

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PICKELL: We have to get better at recognizing the key indicators, the warning signs, and we didn't do that here.

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BATTISTA: And from attorney Geoffrey Fieger, representing the parents of Kayla Rolland:

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GEOFFREY FIEGER, ATTORNEY: My purpose isn't simply to place blame, but perhaps to determine the cause.

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BATTISTA: Good afternoon everyone and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

It is a tough case. Almost everyone involved says the 6-year-old accused of killing a first-grade girl should not be criminally prosecuted. But there is a sense that someone is at fault, that there should be some vindication for this tiny victim. But who or what?

Here to talk about it first with us today is Sheilah Garland- Olaniran, co-founder and coordinator of the Genesee County Welfare Rights Coalition.

Sheilah, welcome to the show.

SHEILAH GARLAND-OLANIRAN, WELFARE RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Thank you.

BATTISTA: I'd like to further this along a little bit, if I could, too, from pointing the finger of blame to searching for the causes. I'm curious as to what you think were the elements that came together here that allowed this tragedy to happen.

GARLAND-OLANIRAN: Well, Bobbie, first of all, I'd like to, you know, send our condolences to the family of these small children. I think it's a tragedy and -- but I think that there's something that's been missing in all these things that we've heard over the past several days as this tragedy unfolds. We've talked about gun control, we've talked about pointing the finger...

BATTISTA: You know, what, we're -- let me interrupt you just a second, Sheilah, because we are having audio problems on this end and we'll try to get those fixed and return to you in just a second.

On the phone with us, though, is Michigan State Senator Bill Van Regenmorter. He is on the phone with us from Grand Rapids, Michigan, and he is known as a victims' rights advocate.

Senator, let me pose the same question to you while we're fixing those audio problems. I don't know whether you heard it, but I was asking about what elements you thought came together here that allowed this tragedy to happen.

BILL VAN REGENMORTER (R), MICHIGAN STATE SENATE: Well, unfortunately, the elements that came together are the tragic possession and life of a very young boy, 6-years-old, which turned dramatically into the murder of this beautiful little 6-year-old girl -- a whole bunch of elements. Clearly, a 6-year-old boy living in a crack house with guns readily available is a most inappropriate place for a 6-year-old to be -- unconscionable. So those are the two elements that brought all of this together.

BATTISTA: Well, how do you think that happened? And do you blame someone or something in particular?

VAN REGENMORTER: Well, I really don't blame anyone in particular. There possibly are several people. There must be a line of authority somewhere. There have to have been adults who had some responsibility. I recognize one, I think an uncle, is charged now with involuntary manslaughter, which I think does reflect an adult who had some authority or supervision in the life of this young boy.

The Family Independence Agency, our state social services agency, was involved. Did they do enough? Don't know yet, but clearly there was some intervention. But even in spite of intervention, this boy was living in a crack house where drug trades apparently were common, guns apparently were readily available; not only guns but loaded guns. And he knew enough, unfortunately, how to pull the trigger.

BATTISTA: Sheilah we fixed your audio problem I think now, so I'm sorry for interrupting. You were saying?

GARLAND-OLANIRAN: Yes, I think that it is real important for our society to place blame, but I think that there's a larger picture here. And this is a picture that sort of goes back to 1996 with the signing of welfare reform. And at the time that the signing of this legislation was done, it was very clear that hundreds of thousands of people would be abandoned by our society. We're talking about systemic poverty that has all of the things attendant to it. And what does this mean for the children who have to sort of maneuver in that environment? Beecher School District -- or the Beecher District, roughly 82 percent of the population receives some sort of food stamps or the children are eligible for free-lunch programs.

BATTISTA: Did you say 80 percent.

GARLAND-OLANIRAN: Eighty-two percent. That's roughly the figure. So it's very high. And so when you have that sort of poverty where people really have no recourse or left to their own devices because the system is saying, now you're independent and you are, quote-unquote, "responsible" for everything, when we know that that's not the case for most working people. If you work in a job, you have some support. And people need those supports in order to live their lives. And if you have people without any support, how are they supposed to conduct their lives?

BATTISTA: Let's...

GARLAND-OLANIRAN: And so this is...

BATTISTA: I was just going to say, let me have the Senator chime in on this as to, is there not enough attention being paid to this particular part of the state that's clearly so economically depressed?

REGENMORTER: Well, this particular part of the state has, in fact, a pretty decent employment rate. I think enough attention has been -- the state really has an award-winning social services program, and the reforms that she just talked about of a few years ago, are recognized nationally not only, but are being emulated. In a state of almost 10 million people, sadly, a few people are going to fall through the cracks. And that's not an excuse. I don't -- as I mentioned earlier, what happened is unconscionable. The circumstances in which he lived are unconscionable circumstances. BATTISTA: Sheilah, you were, as I understand it, a substitute teacher at Buell Elementary. Did you know this little boy?

GARLAND-OLANIRAN: No, I was only at the school for a few days, so I knew a little bit. When I subbed, I only subbed in the Beecher School District and I'll tell you why. I subbed in that school district because, one, there was a high percentage of the teachers who were very dedicated to their work, who were conscientious, who are conscientious, and have a very mature work force.

So -- but, in spite of all that, it's very difficult to do your work when you don't have adequate tools. Who wouldn't send a plumber out without the adequate tools to do their jobs? Yet, in school, we have teachers in the classroom daily who don't have sufficient tools to do what they need to do.

BATTISTA: Do you think that the teachers and the school administrators did enough here to protect the children?

GARLAND-OLANIRAN: What I will say, and I will say this again, is that we're looking at a system that is impoverished. And when you're looking at this type of poverty, all the good intentions in the world will sometimes fall short when you don't have the necessary tools to do your work.

BATTISTA: We're kind of getting two different pictures here. On the one hand, Senator, we have you saying that, you know, the high employment rate in this area, they have an award-winning social services program. And on the other hand, we've got 82 percent of the people on welfare, it's a highly impoverished area and the schools don't have enough resources, there's not a PTA, the library's closed. This is not jiving too well.

REGENMORTER: Well, let's talk about the education system. Education is Michigan's number one budge item. I should quickly say, I'm not Michigan's defender nor apologist, but education is far and away our largest budget item. School districts, like this school district, are averaging $5,600 to $5,800 per student, which is, I believe, a good amount. We are increasing that significantly in this year's budget, and that's been well publicized.

The problem really is, I think, that society can't be blamed for everything that goes wrong. Some things go wrong and it's a little difficult to assign specific blame. This may be one of those cases, although, again, someone has to answer the question about: Did school officials know that he had a gun? How did he actually get the gun? And that will come out, I assume, in that involuntary manslaughter trial. But it's easy to indict the system, but just throwing more money at a system isn't going to solve it because we've already been doing that.

BATTISTA: Do you, Senator, indict the parents? Do they not have the lion's share of responsibility here?

REGENMORTER: No question, no question. The mother, apparently, abandoned -- essentially abandoned this child -- I'm working from news reports now -- father in prison, and father is quoted as saying that this young man was headed for trouble: violent, mad and angry all the time. And so this was a situation developing that was waiting to happen.

And, by the way, it's consistent with what we're seeing in Michigan and, I believe, in other states. While there's a significant reduction in juvenile violent crime, that crime which does exist seems to be unusually horrible, unusually tragic. We had a 13-year-old, who committed a murder with 33 stab wounds. We had the 11-year-old who committed cold-blooded murder more recently, and now we have a 6-year- old.

So there is a process that we have to recognize. And I think that we have to recognize that there are some. hopefully just a few, incredibly violent juveniles. And we've got to do something with the system to make sure that they are -- don't become predators.

BATTISTA: Sheila, the mother of this child had been investigated by DFACS (ph) on charges of abuse. What options were available to her, and why do you think that she did not avail herself of them?

GARLAND-OLANIRAN: I can't speak intelligently to that. I'm not real familiar with all that. I do know that the system is very difficult to traverse. One of the things that we do as advocates of welfare recipients and those people who are poor -- and our system has tried to assist them in traversing that process. There are all sorts of mechanisms by which individuals are discouraged from coming into the system, for seeking assistance. And the whole notion that there's something innately wrong with you if you need or require some assistance from our system I think sort of folds into what we're seeing unfold in front of our very eyes.

The very fact that we have such a significant population in our area living in poverty has not been addressed as a systematic problem. But we want to assign blame to just a small percentage of people who really have no power in and of themselves to make these changes. It seems ludicrous to me. It is a systemic issue. It is an issue of abandoning large segments of our population and leaving them to their own devices.

BATTISTA: Let me get some reaction from the audience -- Perry from New Jersey.

PERRY: Hi, Bobbie.

I just -- I want to disagree with what Sheilah had mentioned, because it is an issue that is systemic in our society. But I disagree that if you throw more money at the problem -- what we're looking at is are there crisis counselors available? It was mentioned in the prelude that this student had some serious problems and some additional discipline problems. So the question that I would ask is did anybody look at that student and how was this discipline handled?

And also, I don't know exactly where this activity took place, but somebody had to have saw that a student just doesn't come with a lunch box and have a gun in it. So where was the activity going on here? I don't think throwing more money is talking about blame.

BATTISTA: You know what? A little bit later on in the show we will talk to an attorney who represents a school board, the Georgia school boards here. And I think he can address, you know, your question about that, about how much, you know -- because you know the situation with teachers. You know, if they try to get too involved, they get sued, and if they don't get involved they get sued.

We have to take a quick break here, and Senator William Van Regenmorter, we thank you very much for joining us, appreciate your time.

In just a few moments, how much does a 6-year-old now about right and wrong and life and death.

Back in a moment.

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BATTISTA: Social workers in Michigan investigated an average of 147,628 cases of suspected child abuse or neglect each year from 1995 to 1997. Social workers removed nearly 50,000 children from homes as a result of abuse, neglect or delinquency.

Joining us now is criminal defense attorney John Burris. He was involved in the case of a 6-year-old accused in the attempted murder of a 2-month-old child. Also with us is Ken Clayman, a Ventura County, California, public defender. He spent nine years as chief of the juvenile services division of the Los Angeles Public Defender's Office.

Welcome to both of you.

John, let me start with you. Do you think that the right people are being criminally held responsible here? hand that, at this point in time, would be the friend of the uncle who reportedly had the stolen gun in his possession and showed it to the child. And do you think there might be other charges to be filed.

JOHN BURRIS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, certainly I think it's right form him to be charged with some crime. I frankly don't think it's right for him to be charged with involuntary manslaughter, in large measure because he wasn't a direct actor. He is -- should be responsible for making -- having a gun available where a child should have got access to it. And that certainly is a criminal conduct, and he ought to be charged with that.

I think it's also appropriate that the child is not being charged, although he I hear some rumblings from the U.S. Attorney's office that they might want to do federal charges. But really, frankly, a 6-year-old cannot really understand the consequences of their act, form the requisite mental state. Even though they might know the difference between right and wrong, they really have no concept of what death is and the permanency of death nor do they understand they really understand the consequences of an act that they engage in. So it's appropriate that he's not being charged. I think it's appropriate that the uncle is being charged, but not for the charge that he is presently under, involuntary manslaughter.

BATTISTA: Ken Clayman, there are some people out there who, you know, would still put a 6-year-old in an adult court. And you're part of the task force that is setting the guidelines for this kind of thing. So would you concur?

KEN CLAYMAN, VENTURA COUNTY PUBLIC DEFENDER: I definitely concur with everything Mr. Burris said, and I think the liability here is what, at least in California, is called contributing to the delinquency of a minor. And I think those people who were in the home who were involved with doing that should be held responsible. But I do not think by any stretch that a 6-year-old should be sent to the adult court for trial for this type of conduct.

And in answer to the other question, there is a task force of the American Bar Association, the largest voluntary bar association for lawyers in the country, that is working to develop standards in those cases where juveniles are sent to the adult court, and developing procedures as to how they should be handled and recommendations as to special treatment of juveniles in the adult court.

BATTISTA: Did this task force become necessary because we're seeing more and more juveniles in adult court?

CLAYMAN: That is exactly the reason. It's more and more become the trend, rightly or wrongly, to be send juveniles of increasingly younger age to the adult court, even though we have a juvenile court system that many of us feel is dealing very effectively with these, very often, children. Because of the reality that many are being sent to the adult court, it was felt necessary to try to develop some standards as to how these youth will be treated in the adult court.

BATTISTA: John, tell us a little bit about that 6-year-old that you represented that was accused of murder? How did all that come to happen?

BURRIS: Yes, my 6-year-old was, along with two other kids who were 7 and 8 at the time, allegedly went into a house to steal a bicycle. While in the house, there was a baby in a bassinet. My client was alleged to have knocked the bassinet over, kicked the baby, assaulted the baby a number of times and then fled the place. He was charged with attempted murder. The baby has permanent brain damage.

And the real issue in the case for us was, one, did he understand the consequenses of his act? Did he assist counsel? Was he competent to stand trial? And in our case, they were trying to try him in the juvenile division of the criminal section as opposed to the adult court.

Ultimately, I was able to convince the court that he didn't understand the consequenses of his act. He didn't understand what death was, and nor could he assist counsel. He really was a 6-year- old functioning on a 4-year-old level. And from a maturity point of view, the irony of all this is that he had many of the same problems that this other kid in Michigan has in terms of manifesting anti- social behavior at a very early age, getting in fights in schools, having problems in school, not performing well and functioning at a very under age level and also living in a home that was less than desirable and coming from a family that had a background of violence in it. So, there are a lot of parallels here.

I think that this particular case in Michigan at least dealing with it very humanely. Ultimately, they dealt with our case humanely as well. My kid was taken out of the juvenile justice system, put in social services, and a lot of effort has been made to try and make his life as comfortable as possible.

BATTISTA: How's he doing?

BURRIS: I think he's doing very well. He is not at home with his mother. He is in a situation where he is getting not only psychological treatment he's getting educational treatment. He's learning the social values of the society. And I think that as a whole everyone in this area really pitched in and tried to do a good job to identify him as a person we ought to try to salvage. It's unfortunate that the system didn't work beforehand to where he really needed attention and they might have been able to prevent the situation.

I think that's the real challenge of the society is, do we recognize the signs that kids may involve in anti-social behavior early enough so that we can prevent it?

BATTISTA: Ken, what are your -- when we say the system doesn't work it's -- it's become sort of a mantra. The system doesn't work, there's no safety net, the kids are falling through the cracks. How -- where and how do we start to fix it?

CLAYMAN: Well, I think some of the things that have been said by both of your guests is, there have been some studies that have shown that children who are ultimately going to be involved in delinquency can be identified at a very early age.

And as mentioned, this particular child, the 6-year-old had problems that were identifiable, but there seemed to be a lack of services in order to deal with children like this, to alter their poor course of conduct and to try to deliver them the kind of services and remediation that they need. And I think that's the key. Unfortunately, the major emphasis is on punishing people, sending children to the adult court, locking them away as long as possible, which is simply a throwing-away-the-key approach. It's going to ensure that they not only make -- commit these kind of act as children but are going to become full-fledged hardened criminals.

BATTISTA: To the audience and Jerry.

JERRY: Yes, I think that the -- one of the big issues here is the parental involvement. Our parents do not get involved enough with the students, and we're talking about putting a lot of pressure on our school systems. And parents should know whether that child would have come to school with that gun if they were involved more with the bringing up of children.

BATTISTA: They weren't even there...

CLAYMAN: Well, I think that that's...

BATTISTA: ... and that's apart of the problem.

CLAYMAN: Yes, that's the problem, what it is of course.

BATTISTA: They weren't there. I got -- you know what? We'll address this when we get back. I have to take a quick break.

LAUREN: Hi, I'm Lauren at American University. I definitely believe that the most unfortunate thing about this is that this boy seemed to have no support in his life. I think the biggest lesson to learn is that all communities need to teach responsibility for the local children.

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BATTISTA (voice-over): Buell Elementary remained closed today for classes but was open for counselling. The school district sent teachers and counselors to the homes of the 20 other first grade classmates, including the five childern who witnessed the shooting.

Welcome back.

Jerry was talking about parental involvement just a few moments ago, and we just wanted to clear up the fact that the father was in jail and the mother had left the children at this crack house while she went to live with her sister. And, of course, we don't know the circumstances that preceded that necessarily, but the point being they weren't there to be watching out for this child.

I said, goodbye, earlier to the senator and he is still with us on the phone, and I'm glad for that.

Senator, you have -- I think are in the process of introducing several new bills in Michigan, more laws being the answer here?

VAN REGENMORTER: We have a brand new law. It is unrelated to this at least in its inception but does relate to it very directly. It's called child endangerment. It goes into effect April the 3rd, so it does not apply here. But as your attorney said involuntary manslaughter is a tough one in this case. This law says that if an adult intentionally or knowingly creates the likelihood of serious injury or death to a child, they can be charged with a felony. And that certainly could include having a gun available. It certainly could include putting children in dangerous situations. We've had examples of children being dangled outside of cars, for example, as a discipline measure. That's the sort of thing that can be involved.

BATTISTA: So do you think that it's going to be difficult to prove gross negligence and convict this person on involuntary manslaughter in this case.

VAN REGENMORTER: Well, I don't want to impact the jurors in the case. It obviously is a little bit tough, but it's gross negligence resulting in death, could be an involuntary manslaughter case here in Michigan. Obviously, that is the charge.

BATTISTA: Ken Clayman, do you agree on that? Difficult one to prove?

CLAYMAN: I think it's very difficult. I think it's more clear there would be a charge like a child endangerment, a contributing to the delinquency of minors, but I think to prove an actual homicide charge here as much as we may be repelled by the conduct and the kind of conditions that exist in the child's house, I think that would be a very difficult thing to prove.

BURRIS: And I don't think it's fair either. Frankly, a homicide is a very serious accusation to put on any individual. And it is true that maybe his lifestyle wasn't good and he could have done a better job and he ought to be convicted of some crime related to, you know, being reckless in some fashion, but to lay homicide and to expose him to 15 years in prison really for maybe not being -- and it wasn't even his child. I mean, to some extent he probably didn't even feel the same level of parental responsibilities that the parents would. He felt that, you know, they might have been equals, not totally equals, but not his overall responsibility to take control of this child and to protect this child from whatever needed to be done.

I can't understand why social service could even allow this to happen to the extent that they were involved in this situation, why it is that they didn't even know that this kid was living in a house where his parents weren't there, when point in fact, they had some involvement in that family structure as it was going along.

BATTISTA: Yes, I know most people have trouble believing that and is that just a fault of a system that's just, you know, wrapped up in too much red tape and the process is too slow?

GARLAND-OLANIRAN: You know, Bobbie, we've got -- I'm sorry -- we've got in Michigan, you know, case workers actually having their caseloads increase, where, you know, they're not having the time to focus and pay attention to the kinds of things that they should be focused on, you know.

And I really -- I want to take -- make a point here. You know, it's very easy to say that you call the mantra of blaming the system, but what I want to make sure that people understand is that as a society we represent that system, and as a society we need to figure out what we are going to focus on.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say on the one hand you have to assign blame to a small handful of people and let the rest of society, the system, off the hook. We have hundreds of thousands of jobs that have left, never to return again.

In the Flint area, tens of thousands of jobs have been lost, and what are the people who are left behind supposed to do? How do you -- there's -- what about the discussion about the mother not even having a place to live, and the health issue related to the substances and mental illnesses or whatever may be present? How are those things being treated when they're not even available to large segments of our population?

BATTISTA: OK, a lot of questions you're asking there, Sheila, and we do have to take another break at this time. Ken Clayman, we thank you very much for joining us, and Senator, we say good-bye for real this time, thanks very much for your time.

VAN REGENMORTER: Thanks, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: We'll be back in just a moment.

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BATTISTA: The parents of Kayla Rolland have hired attorney Geoffrey Fieger, according to "The New York Times." Fieger says that he is investigating the possibility that Buell Elementary School did not properly guard children from a community awash in guns and drugs. Can the school be blamed?

On the phone with us is Phil Hartley, who is general counsel to the Georgia School Board Association.

Mr. Hartley, can you maybe at least partially hold the schools responsible since even in this particular case they were aware of the issues and problems with this child?

PHIL HARTLEY, GEORGIA SCHOOL BOARD ASSOCIATION: Well, I don't believe that it's appropriate or frankly even proper to hold our school systems responsible for all of the issues that we find our children to be encountering in society. In this particular case, the environment from which the child, in which the child was obviously living, the situation that existed there was -- is certainly not something for which you can hold the school system responsible.

BATTISTA: So are you saying that once teachers and school officials do whatever they are required to do, and I don't know if that is under policy or law, then that's enough?

HARTLEY: Well, I can't speak for the situation in Michigan, because candidly I don't know all the laws or requirements in Michigan, but I know that in...

BATTISTA: OK, well, let's take a hypothetical then here in Georgia, what if we had a similar situation in Georgia here and the teachers had informed the social services people about this child and the problems, but nobody was doing anything to either keep a further eye on this child or perhaps remove him from a situation. Where, you know, does the blame go?

HARTLEY: Well, certainly the blame in that situation doesn't go to the school system. If the school system has in fact given notice, number one, if the school system even knows, number two, if the school system has in fact given notice to the appropriate social agencies of what they perceive to be a problem, but number three, certainly in Georgia and I'm -- this is true in many other states throughout the country, there are procedures in place in the school system both from a disciplinary point of view and from a student support point of view to try to deal with students who may be chronically causing problems at schools.

BATTISTA: And I know that's frustrating for teachers, because my sister is one and has been in that kind of scenario and you don't get very far. In a way, the teachers are dammed if they do and they're dammed if they don't, because if they don't do something about it they could get sued, and if they do, do something about it they could very well get sued.

HARTLEY: I don't know many teachers nor do I school administrators or school boards that won't do something about it. The question becomes, what do you do? We have many, many students who are engaged in some type of misconduct, whether it is trash talking, whether it is some kind of verbal kind of threatening in some way, all of those are subject to disciplinary action.

But when you have students this age, how do you draw that line, where in the world do you determine that this particular student is going to go beyond the kind of talking and inappropriate comments which is all too prevalent and instead is going to resort to this kind of violence and this kind of tragedy? School systems are required to ensure that students are in school. Many students who are identified as having some kind of problem are required to be placed in some kind of more expensive kind of program even through special education or otherwise.

BATTISTA: In some states, though, that does take -- that's like, you know -- it takes an act of God to do that.

HARTLEY: It certainly does take following due process and following those procedures and sometimes those can be very expensive, lawyers can get involved, et cetera.

BATTISTA: Let me go -- John, did you want to say something, because we have...

BURRIS: Yes. I just want to say in a situation, it's question of notice and does a school district have notice about some inappropriate conduct that might endanger other students. In this case, it may be that this boy had engaged in conduct before. I understand there may be a stabbing event, something in this case where someone was physically hurt. If that's true, then it means you are on higher notice if you hear about a conflict that happened say perhaps in the next day, then you should be on greater notice, and maybe the school district should -- may have some culpability.

If they were aware of a previous stabbing event, and then secondly they hear about this incident the day before, it seems to me they should have been watching that kid maybe a little closer when he came to school that next day. That's -- I'm not saying that they are responsible, but I can see where facts could develop that might say they had a higher sense of responsibility.

BATTISTA: And at that age, kindergarten, first grade, I know that teachers have a very involved relationship usually with the parents at that age.

HARTLEY: Where there are parents.

BATTISTA: Yes.

Tim in our audience is with Leneer (ph) Middle School, as a matter of fact -- an administrator.

TIM: Teachers in the public school systems are under so much pressure to increase test scores, do this, do that. Yes, it would be nice if we were more aware of some of these problems, but in the public school system, we have to teach all children. We don't have a chance to send them to a private school, send them somewhere else. We get them come to us every morning not knowing what they've been through that night. We don't know if they got any sleep, if they got any food, and we have to teach those children every day. It's a large task.

BATTISTA: OK, I've got to take a break here. We'll be back in just a moment.

In the late 1980s, Assistant Wayne County, Michigan Prosecutor Daniel Less successfully prosecuted a man on an involuntary manslaughter charge after a 4-year-old shot himself with the man's gun. The man left his cocked gun under a bed. The child crawled under the bed, reached for the gun, and it went off.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back.

Before we continue, it's interesting to note a story that happened last week about a 5-year-old and a gun from reporter Richard Thompson (ph) of CNN affiliate KIRO.

Let's watch:

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TABITHA ANN DIZER, MOTHER: I still haven't been able to sleep at night knowing the fact that my child could have been killed.

BRENDA MASON, MOTHER: I just thank God I still have my child.

RICHARD THOMPSON, KIRO REPORTER (voice-over): Two mothers are thankful their children, Samantha Dizer and Brandon Howard (ph), were not hit when a 5-year-old playmate came out and fired a handgun while the kids were playing alone.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: He went in the house and got a gun.

CHIEF RANDY HAMILTON, CHEHALIS POLICE: Well he didn't think it was really -- would it work? And he managed to load it.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: He aimed it at us and shot it at the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I just told him to don't aim it at us, and then he aimed it at Brandon and me and then he shot at the ground. THOMPSON: The children claim they did not threaten the 5-year- old prior to the shooting, and they were shocked when they realized it was a real gun.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Scared.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I was a little scared.

THOMPSON: The children's parents can't believe nobody is being held responsible.

DIZER: Obviously he isn't old enough to know what he's doing, but there's got to be some way to hold the parents responsible.

THOMPSON: But police say the gun was unloaded and placed up high on a cabinet. Under state law, that's exercising reasonable care. But it's little comfort for parents.

MASON: Any kid around the neighborhood could have been killed that day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BATTISTA: All right, John and Sheilah are still with us. I think some people might have trouble with the conclusion here in that any gun that isn't -- Oh, I -- that is, you know -- this gun was deemed to be properly stored, but any gun that a 5-year-old can get, how is that properly stored? I don't know.

BURRIS: Well, I would agree with that. I mean, if a gun can be found by a 5-year-old, then it's not properly stored. And then if a gun isn't properly stored and is used in a way that can endanger someone, create an assaultive kind of atmosphere, then the parents probably should be held responsible on contributing to the delinquency of a minor, some charge that says to parents, you have a responsibility to make sure tat dangerous weapons are not placed in a reasonable proximity to children. And if you don't do it, you can be held criminally responsible. That, to me, seems to be reasonable and fair, and it should be some charge that's related to that.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Laura in the audience. I think you want to go back to the school issue.

LAURA: I think, with so many more parents working today, that the teacher's really the first line of defense because they're the only ones that are really spending seven, eight hours with the student and they really have a good idea of that student's temperament. So maybe like a better training system or some, maybe, psychological training they can get.

BATTISTA: You think they should have to widen their responsibilities a little bit -- Terry.

LAURA: I think so. They're the only people there that know the child.

BATTISTA: Terry.

BURRIS: Well, you know, I would say to that is that you have to be careful about overburdening schoolteachers. My sister has been a schoolteacher for years. She has 30 in a class, she's now a principal, and they have a big job, and all they can do is look for signs. But you have 30 kids, all of them don't get the same amount of attention seven hours during the course of a day. So we want to be a little careful about how much burden we want to put on public school teachers to try to identify all the problems -- social problems that a kid might have.

TERRY: Bobbie, I just want to dovetail off of what John just said. It comes down to the point that we're not asking the teacher now to solve all the problems. But like in the Kayla McCain (ph) case in Florida, the teacher clearly brought the issue to the Division of Family Services, and then the Division of Family Services dropped the ball.

And in the clip right before we went to break, you see, now, we're taking a reactive stance because you have the school social workers, shows that there are the resource that Sheilah mentioned that there weren't there, to go out now and counsel families when they were already in place. So, once again, it goes, once the teacher identifies a behavioral problem, then it's up to those social crisis workers to go out and talk with those students. So we're talking about a pro-active stance as opposed to being reactive.

BATTISTA: We'll be back in just a moment.

TANIA: Hi, my name is Tania (ph) from American University, and I feel that people really need to reflect upon these kinds of occurrences and think about their own actions, evaluate their own relationship with family and community.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: We -- John, we only have about 30 seconds here, what do you think will happen to this child, are you optimistic for him?

BURRIS: I think that the child itself will -- I hope they do like they did in my case where they put the kid in social services, they take over the kid, put him in an environment where he's -- where they addressed his needs, his social needs, his education needs, his psychological needs, and important values, important social values, so I hope that will take place. Get him him out of the home, though, keep him away from that family for as long as they need to.

BATTISTA: All right, John Burris, thanks very much for joining us. Phil Hartley on the phone, appreciate your input as well. And Sheilah Garland-Olaniran, thank you very much. We are out of time.

Enjoy your weekend everyone, and we'll see you again for more TALKBACK LIVE on Monday.

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