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Crossfire

Who Is the `Right' Choice for South Carolina Republicans?

Aired February 15, 2000 - 7:30 p.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Tonight, will the real conservative please stand up? Bush, McCain and Keyes get ready to debate amid charges that John McCain is not conservative enough. Who is the "Right" choice for South Carolina Republicans?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Mary Matalin. In the crossfire, Florida Congressman Joe Scarborough, a supporter of Governor Bush, and in Columbia South Carolina, Congressman Lindsey Graham, a John McCain supporter.

PRESS: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. Gentlemen, start your engines. Yes, the three surviving Republican candidates -- George Bush, Alan Keyes and John McCain -- line up for their last debate before Saturday's South Carolina primary: to be seen, of course, right here on CNN in a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE starting at 9 o'clock Eastern.

Warming for tonight's verbal slugfest, the Bush camp charged that John McCain was not conservative enough. McCain pointed to his 80 to 100 percent voting record from the National Right to Life Committee. Bush also revealed his own campaign finance reform plan, which bans soft money from corporations and labor unions, but not from individuals, a plan McCain immediately dismissed as only half a loaf.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It would be bogus. It would be bogus if we didn't get rid of soft money, because everybody knows that's the root of all evil in American politics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: On the Democratic side, Al Gore today picked up the endorsement of the National Abortion Rights Action league. But tonight all eyes on the Republican debate in South Carolina -- Mary.

MARY MATALIN, CO-HOST: Well, Congressman Graham, thanks for joining us. You've been campaigning hard and you are at the debate tonight.

So let's tackle an issue that is sure to come up at the debate tonight and is peculiar to South Carolina, and that is Bob Jones University. Senator McCain jumped on the elite media bandwagon bashing Bush for going there. McCain said he wouldn't go because it's "not American."

Do you agree with that sentiment?

REP. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), MCCAIN SUPPORTER: Well, here's what's going on for the Republican Party in South Carolina. These candidates are going to come out of this thing drastically different than they came in, particularly Governor Bush.

Bob Jones University has views that I disagree with. They're friends of mine over there, but I don't know how that's going to play out. I really don't. I know they say things that a lot of Americans would disagree with. I can't tell you what's going to happen there. I really don't know.

MATALIN: Well, Lindsey, here's my question, because Ronald Reagan went there and the current sitting Democratic governor has gone there. Last May, you received an honorary degree from Bob Jones.

GRAHAM: I've been there. Yes, I've been there.

MATALIN: OK? So obviously, what McCain was doing was implying that Bush was a racist. Is this a reformer playing the race card in the Republican Party?

GRAHAM: I don't -- I don't remember John saying that he was a racist. I have heard John say that, you know, if he went there, he would say what Alan Keyes said: that he disagrees on the ban on interracial dating, that the policy of Bob Jones toward the pope is something most Americans would disagree with. But the fact that Governor Bush went there, Ronald Reagan went there, every who went there, that I went there is not why people in South Carolina are going to vote, I hope.

MATALIN: Well, it just was an issue raised, and I want to raise one more and just get it off the table, since we put the race card on the table, unfortunately, for Republicans. We're used to Democrats doing that.

GRAHAM: I disagree with that.

MATALIN: OK. We...

GRAHAM: Alan Keyes is African-American. He went to the Bob Jones University, and he says: "I married an Indian woman. I disagree with your policy banning interracial dating. I disagree with your policy about Catholics because I'm Catholic. I don't think that's a racial issue."

MATALIN: I agree with all of that, but it was the senator who said it was not American, implying of course that Bush's going there was not American.

Now, the top consultant to the South Carolina campaign...

GRAHAM: No. What he's saying is it's not American -- in my opinion, I agree with this -- to question people's religion, that the Catholic Church is a cult. I don't think that's a good thing to say. I don't know why they arrived at that decision.

But I've gone to Bob Jones University at their invitation, and I would like to talk about why John is the best president. And that's what we're trying to do down here. But you can't turn on the radio or the TV without some fear tactic being levied at John.

MATALIN: Well,that's exactly why I'm raising it, because John professes to be taking the high road by doing those underhanded shots. It's not American to go there.

Let me ask you if this is American, because this is a South Carolina chairman who receives $20,000 a month. He's the pro-flag strategist also there, and he edits "The Southern Partisan Quarterly Review," in which it was written -- and he edited -- "Mainstream black leaders perpetuate the myth that vicious white slave traders dragged Africans from their idyllic homeland to serve as chattel for arrogant white Americans. Readers of this magazine know otherwise."

Does John McCain think that is an American to say? This is his top consultant in the state.

GRAHAM: He's also my consultant. He's also the same guy that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Graham (ph), a political science professor at the University of South Carolina, commented on as being a very honorable, decent, nonracist guy. He's the same guy that the three top supporters of Governor Bush wrote a letter saying there's not a racist bone in Mr. Quinn's body.

He's the editor in chief of a magazine. He doesn't do it day in, day out.

There are a lot of things that have been said on CNN that I wouldn't hold them against you. But he's my consultant too. So I guess if he's a racist, I am too.

PRESS: Joe Scarborough, maybe we'll talk about Bob Jones you and I a little later. I want to ask you about...

REP. JOE SCARBOROUGH (R-FL), BUSH SUPPORTER: I want to talk about it now actually.

PRESS: I want to ask you about today's news. I want to ask you about today's news, because Governor Bush today finally unveiled his plan for campaign finance reform. I mean, you might say better late than never.

But Joe, Governor Bush said: "I'm going to get rid of soft money. That's my plan."

So he does ban soft money from corporations...

SCARBOROUGH: Right.

PRESS: ... he does ban it from labor unions...

SCARBOROUGH: Right. PRESS: ... but not from individuals. So this is a phony plan, isn't it? He does not ban soft money.

SCARBOROUGH: Well, he does. I mean, he actually bans about 90 percent of the soft money that comes into the system. Now, Senator McCain said it was half a loaf. You want to know what half a loaf is? Half a loaf is banning soft money from everywhere but still allowing unions to spend about $300 million from money that they rob from people that work day in and day out who don't want the money robbed from them. It's called "paycheck protection."

And for the life of me, I cannot figure out why we've got George W.'s plan that stops unions from stealing money to give to people that you support in the Democratic Party...

PRESS: Pardon...

SCARBOROUGH: ... and yet Senator McCain's plan does not do that.

PRESS: All right. Do you know, Joe, you and Ralph Reed and Ari Fleischer...

SCARBOROUGH: Oh, here we go. Here we go.

PRESS: ... and everybody else who comes on for George Bush, they immediately, when you ask them about soft money, they immediately start talking about other stuff, like paycheck protection. We can do another show on that. I'm asking about soft money.

SCARBOROUGH: Right.

PRESS: What I'm pointing out to you is that George Bush basically told a big untruth today. He says, "I'm going to ban soft money," but he doesn't ban it all. He leaves this huge loophole that individuals can continue to give soft money and make up...

SCARBOROUGH: But it's not a huge loophole at all.

PRESS: ... they can make up for all the soft money that the corporations used to do.

SCARBOROUGH: Let me tell you something -- let me tell you something: 75 percent of the soft money that comes in soft money comes from corporations. I mean, the people that you...

PRESS: In the past.

SCARBOROUGH: Still today. And you want to talk about real campaign finance reform that I'll tell you scares everybody in Washington, D.C.? It's now that congressmen and senators can't raise money while they're in session from lobbyists. And that is something that's not going to only hurt my operation and the operation of 434 other people in the House. That'll also hurt 100 people in the Senate.

Now, that's real campaign finance reform. We force our state legislators to live by that. We should force people in Washington to do it. And here's a...

PRESS: OK.

SCARBOROUGH: ... perfect example of how a Washington outsider is coming in and trying to make a decision, and says, hey, it's working out in the flyover space, let's do it in the Beltway.

PRESS: That is another part of the governor's plan, and I'm glad you've raised it, because...

SCARBOROUGH: It's a tough part.

PRESS: ... because if you look at what in fact the governor has done when he says he wants to stop, ban taking money from lobbyists while Congress is in session, as a matter of fact, Governor Bush has these pioneers, you know, who promise to raise $100,000 each. Twenty- three of his pioneers are Washington lobbyists.

SCARBOROUGH: Right.

PRESS: They have raised a minimum of $2.3 million, Joe.

SCARBOROUGH: And let me tell you...

PRESS: Let me finish.

SCARBOROUGH: OK.

PRESS: While Congress is in session, they have raised $480,000 directly from lobbyists to George Bush while Congress is in session. So he's not practicing what he preaches, is he?

SCARBOROUGH: Well, he just put it out -- if I can answer your question, yes, he is. I mean, he...

PRESS: He (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

SCARBOROUGH: And what he's doing right now is he's talking about this is where we should go from here. And John McCain -- we saw John McCain, the guy who hates lobbyists, the guy who is this outsider, who would never do it, who, by the way, has a higher percentage of money from lobbyists than does George W. -- we saw -- we saw him raising money just this past week...

PRESS: How much? How much?

SCARBOROUGH: ... from special interest people...

PRESS: How much? How much?

SCARBOROUGH: A quarter of a million dollars.

PRESS: And how much did George Bush raise last year?

SCARBOROUGH: And what I'm telling you is...

PRESS: How much did George Bush raise last year?

SCARBOROUGH: All I can tell you...

PRESS: Two million, one event.

SCARBOROUGH: ... a higher percentage of McCain's money is coming from special interests and lobbyists than George W.'s. And that's something that everybody wants to deny.

PRESS: Lindsey, I know you want to jump in.

GRAHAM: Well, I would like to talk about the following. The night before the debate, four days from the election in South Carolina, and Governor Bush is finally talking about campaign finance reform. That's a good thing for the nation. That's a good thing for my party.

I disagree that getting a check on Monday from a lobbyist and not taking it on Tuesday, I don't think that's a huge change in how our government works. So I disagree with Joe and Governor Bush that that's a dramatic change in the way we raise money.

The point is that this election ought to be decided based on what we're going to do in the future for the good of the nation, and let's talk a little bit about the surpluses, if you don't mind, because I think that's an issue that really people want to hear about and the differences between the candidates.

Is it OK if I talk about that?

SCARBOROUGH: Well, no. No. I mean...

GRAHAM: It's not?

SCARBOROUGH: Before you talk about what you get a check written on Monday and take it on Tuesday, we're talking about...

GRAHAM: Here's what I am saying, Joe...

SCARBOROUGH: ... congressmen and lobbyists not being...

GRAHAM: ... this is a phony deal.

SCARBOROUGH: No. Congressmen and lobbyists are not able to raise money.

And you talk about phony? You should have heard everybody talking on the floor today about how horrible this would be if they couldn't have a markup on Monday, but the previous week, they're having a PAC fund-raiser. It happens all the time. I mean, they're -- I mean, congressmen and senators are running around horrified about this, because it's real. It's something that's substantial, and it's not window dressing, like so many of these other proposals.

GRAHAM: I respectfully disagree, that that whole idea in my opinion, Joe, is a joke. SCARBOROUGH: Well, it's not a joke for most state legislators.

MATALIN: OK, Lindsey, we'd love to talk about issues, and have spent many nights doing that here, and many of them with you, but as your campaign keeps saying, and the press keeps agreeing, it's not a campaign about issues, it's a campaign about personality. And your closing argument there -- and it's a tag line of a new ad that you dropped today -- is John McCain likens himself to Reagan. Now those who knew Reagan best and worked with him, from David Keen of the American Conservative Union, to Todd Lynnberg (ph), to Mark Levin to Peter Wallison, these are all Reagan administration officials, they're not Bush backers, they're not part of some establishment conspiracy. They say he's not Reagan. He is systematically assaulting Reagan's agenda.

GRAHAM: Can I give you my belief why he is much like Ronald Reagan? He's a conservative, Mary, that can bring independents and Democrats back to our party. He's building a coalition that will win in November. He is doing what Governor Bush talked about doing, and apparently all of a sudden, that's bad. But let me tell you a little bit about whether or not he's like Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan received an award for the conservative of the century. Do you know who accepted that award on Ronald Reagan's behalf? It was John McCain at the request of Nancy Reagan. So I would put her judgment up against anybody as to whether or not he's like Ronald Reagan.

SCARBOROUGH: But let me tell you this. One thing Ronald Reagan would never say, he would never talk about tax cuts for rich. And if you look...

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: Joe, what happened to the 11th commandment?

SCARBOROUGH: ... the George W. Plan. Yes, what happened?

MATALIN: He's talking about the issues.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: We're talking about issues. And what happened about it? Let me tell you, George W. never, ever compared John McCain to Bill Clinton.

GRAHAM: That's not so.

SCARBOROUGH: And you were there...

MATALIN: Gentlemen, gentlemen, it's a predebate debate. Lindsey, we'll be right back. Joe, we'll be right back. Viewers, we'll be right back.

Who's up? Who's down? Who's right? Who's left? Who's inside. Who's outside? Stay tuned to find out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATALIN: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

As the race goes down to the wire, McCain goes for an insider, outsider strategy and Bush goes for a left, right one. For predictions on the candidate who will prevail in tonight's debate at Saturday's polls and beyond, McCain supporter, South Carolina representative Lindsey Graham. He's at the site of tonight's debate, which will air live on CNN at 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time. And right here in Washington, Bush advocate in Florida, Representative Joe Scarborough -- Bill.

PRESS: Well, I have to tell you, as a liberal, I take offense when people call John McCain a liberal. You, Joe Scarborough, are a conservative, no question.

SCARBOROUGH: No question.

PRESS: Is John McCain a conservative?

SCARBOROUGH: Yes, I think he is a conservative.

PRESS: Well, why is it then that -- and "The Washington Post," front-page story today that Bush and his allies are going around questioning McCain's conservative credentials? You know as well as I he is pro-life.

SCARBOROUGH: Right.

PRESS: He voted for all four articles of impeachment.

SCARBOROUGH: Right.

PRESS: He's pro-school voucher.

SCARBOROUGH: Right.

PRESS: He's against the ban on assault weapons.

SCARBOROUGH: Right.

PRESS: He was against safety locks on handguns. He's against a five-day waiting period on handguns. I mean, what more do you want?

SCARBOROUGH: Well, I mean, I think that is very positive. There are some concerns, though, again. I think there are go main concerns that conservatives have. And the first is -- has to do with McCain- Feingold, the campaign finance reform plan, that doesn't address paycheck protection, which is, again, union bosses being able to steal money from employees and funneling them to Democratic candidates. The second thing that really did raise flags for a lot of conservatives was when he talked about George W.'s tax plan as being something for tax cuts for the rich. Now that is just straight out the Democrats' playbook for years and years and years. And because the George W. plan is not that sweeping, I think it caused a lot of people concern.

PRESS: Would you agree on the issue of abortion, key one for conservatives? Both -- as I read their positions -- I've looked at their site today.

SCARBOROUGH: Listen, I've already agreed...

PRESS: Bush and McCain, they're both pro-life. They're both against Roe v. Wade. They've both for a constitutional amendment. And both of them said they would allow three exceptions, for rape, incest and to save the life of the mother. On abortion, no difference between them.

SCARBOROUGH: You're not going to get me objecting.

PRESS: I am just asking.

SCARBOROUGH: Yes, I don't think there's a big difference.

GRAHAM: Good for you, Joe.

SCARBOROUGH: Thank you, Lindsey. I appreciate it, baby.

GRAHAM: But Let's talk about the two points he raised, and this is a good debate here. This is where we need to be, because John and Governor Bush on the social issues are very similar, but on the issue of tax cuts and the effect that tax cuts have, here's my concern as a conservative Republican: One, I voted for campaign finance reform before I ever met John, because paycheck protection is important, Joe, but if you're going to have it and get it to pass, you've got to have permission from stockholders for corporations to get involved. So let's ban soft money. That's the real harm that comes to the Republicans is all this union money coming in the form of soft money. If we'll do that, we're moving the ball forward for the nation.

And as to the tax cuts, Bob Dole was going to be president by being a war hero and having a 15 percent across-the-board tax cut. Here's what I think John has come upon: Al Gore is going to promise you the moon and the stars and one more government program to make your life perfect with the surpluses, and Governor Bush has got a trillion-dollar tax cut that I don't think is going to become law. John is saying the following: Let's have a tax cut, but let's put 62 percent of the surpluses into Social Security to make it solvent for future generations because we've stolen from it for 40 years, and let's pay down the debt. That's three-to-one popular down here.

SCARBOROUGH: Lindsey, listen, we can pay back the debt and still give real tax relief. Let me tell you, the trillion dollars that you talk about is a trillion dollars over 10 years. And I will guarantee you, you go to your town hall meetings and go to my town hall meetings...

GRAHAM: I have.

SCARBOROUGH: ... and say, this is what it's going to look like, this is what the IRS tax codes are going to look like after the George W. plan is implemented when he's president.

GRAHAM: There's no reform in his plan. SCARBOROUGH: And ask them, do you think you're going to still be paying too much taxes to Washington, and I'll guarantee you 99 percent of those people at your town hall meetings and my town hall meetings will say yes, the IRS is still getting too much of Americans' dollars.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: Can I respectfully disagree?

SCARBOROUGH: Yes.

GRAHAM: Three to one in South Carolina people want to pay down the debt out of the surpluses, reinvest in Social Security to make it solvent so we don't have a payroll tax increase, and have a middle class tax cut. The middle class is paying 40 percent. The 1 percent -- the tax cut of Governor Bush, 36 percent of it goes to the top 1 percent wage earnings.

SCARBOROUGH: That's because the top 1 percent of the wage earners pay 40 percent of it. And let me tell you something...

GRAHAM: I would like to give America a new tax code, Joe, if you'd just slow down for a minute.

SCARBOROUGH: Well, I would, too, but the thing is...

PRESS: Why don't you both slow down.

Mary, you go ahead.

MATALIN: So many issues, such little time. So let's go back to process, because this is another of the Senator's closing arguments that he's going to beat Al Gore like a drum. Now you know what the Democrats are saying here already, Lindsey; they're being quoted: Can you spell S&L? Does the word Keating Five mean anything to you? George Bush has already been vetted in the past. There's nothing there. You know, he may be Rambo, Senator McCain, but he's Rambo with a record, and look what Gore has done to Bradley.

GRAHAM: Mary, can I suggest to you how that's going to play out? One thing that John has an appeal, to me at least -- and I think to most people in South Carolina, that he accepts the good with the bad, and they will bring up the Keating Five incidents, where he was exonerated by the Senate. But John will look the people in the eye through the camera and in person and say, it was a mistake I made and I am a better person for it. There will be no what "is" is; there will be no equivocation; there will be a man accepting responsibility for his mistake and a man trying to make the country better. That's what we need in America. And a lot of Democrats and independents are drawn to a guy that won't promise you the moon and stars but shoots straight with you and will admit that he made a mistake, and I hope that's what we can offer the public in November.

MATALIN: Lindsey, one quick question before we run out of time, because you know what Democratic savagery is. Bush questioned inconsistency in the Senator's records. He says this is savage. What is savage is the way you were treated by the Democrats. Don't you think your senator is a little thin-skinned.

GRAHAM: No, ma'am. I think the man that took a beating for five and a half years in a North Vietnamese prison camp, wouldn't come home early when they offered him a chance to come home because his dad was an admiral, is not thin-skinned, and he's going to draw America to heal this nation post-Clinton.

The reason I'm for John McCain, he's the most opposite of Bill Clinton of any candidate we have.

PRESS: We got it. We've got it, Lindsey. And we're also out of time, Joe.

Thank you so much.

SCARBOROUGH: Oh, he gets a wrap-up, and I don't?

PRESS: Good luck, Joe.

SCARBOROUGH: I told you the media was biased toward McCain. You talk too slow there...

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: That's your wrap-up, Joe Scarborough. Thanks for coming to the studio.

SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thanks a lot.

PRESS: Thanks, Lindsey, down there.

We'll be looking at the debate just a little bit from now, but first, Mary Matalin and I will be back with our closing comments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATALIN: One thing I didn't get to ask Lindsey, who is a hero of mine -- he is a true conservative. This is very disturbing what's happening in South Carolina. He said that McCain is bringing conservative Democrats in, right. No, he isn't. He's bringing top dog, yellow dog Democrats in, like Sam Tanenbaum (ph) and the state Representative Rutherford, who has said crossover and then cross back. And Lindsey Graham has run and won standing on the shoulders of giants who built the party from scratch. It's being destroyed by Democrats.

PRESS: Get out of here. I feel your pain.

MATALIN: Good.

PRESS: Look, John McCain, any Republican who wants to win in November, has to attract Democrats, has to attract independents. John McCain has proven he can. I've got to tell you, I've talked to Democrats, Mary, across this country, consultants in almost all the big states. Every one of them has told me what they fear most is having to run against John McCain, and you're trashing your best chance in November. Thank you. From the left, I am Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

MATALIN: Whatever they say, think the opposite, because that's the truth.

PRESS: Right.

MATALIN: I am Mary Matalin. Stay tuned for the debate. And join us tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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