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TalkBack Live

Elian Gonzalez's Grandmothers Come to the U.S.

Aired January 21, 2000 - 3:00 p.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARISLEYSIS GONZALEZ, ELIAN'S COUSIN: I feel that if they want this kid back, they need to show him that his mother tried the best to bring him to a free country, not to make him understand that what she did and died for was nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Can Elian Gonzalez's grandmothers reclaim their grandson and take him back to Cuba? or will protesters and legal maneuverings keep him in the United States? Is this tug-of-war over a little boy or a political ideal?

Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE on this Friday. The grandmothers of Elian Gonzalez are about to land at Kennedy Airport in New York. They have traveled from Cuba, and their plan is to take Elian back to his father in Cuba.

CNN correspondent Frank Buckley is at the airport now with the very latest -- Frank.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bobbie, we are here at -- just outside of the general aviation terminal at John F. Kennedy International Airport, where we are expecting the arrival within about a half hour or 45 minutes of the grandmothers of Elian Gonzalez.

They're expected to go through the normal customs and immigration process, and then they would come here to this location, where we are expecting a news conference, where they are expected to, as has been said to us, appeal to the people of the United States, to let Elian Gonzalez return to Cuba.

BATTISTA: Frank, as I understand it, these grandmothers were not going to come from Cuba to the United States unless there was some sort of guarantee that they could take little Elian back to Cuba. I don't think that happened. So, do you know any of the maneuverings that actually got them here?

BUCKLEY: Well, earlier today, the grandmothers met with a delegation from the National Council of Churches, which is the organization here in the U.S. which is coordinate with a sister organization in Cuba to bring the grandmothers here. There is a meeting in Cuba today, in Havana, at which the grandmothers made that appeal, saying that they didn't want to come unless they could in fact bring the boy back to Cuba. Somehow during that conversation with the delegation from the United States, it's our belief that that position changed. The National Council of Churches has said that, in fact, the purpose of this trip now is simply to make this appeal. They have not said that that condition has been met.

BATTISTA: Do we know what their agenda is from this point on?

BUCKLEY: Well, it's our sense that what they hope to do is to come here and make this appeal from the point of view of grandmothers and beyond that they may later today or perhaps tomorrow stay in New York, meet with Charles Rangel, who is a congressman from the New York area, who has been supportive of the INS position, that Elian should be able to return to Cuba to be with his father.

So, there is a possibility that meeting may happen. Beyond that, we are not really sure.

BATTISTA: And one last question, I would imagine the security at the airport there is fairly tight.

BUCKLEY: Well, it is, but this is an airport that is used to a great deal of media attention. It has, in fact, this room is the room from which we've received information in various plane crashes such as the TWA 800 crash, the John F. Kennedy crash, other incidents like that. So they are used to handling a sudden influx of media, which is what we have in this room right now, and they will be ready for the arrival of the plane soon.

BATTISTA: All right, Frank Buckley, thanks very much. I'm sure we will be joining you just a little bit later.

Susan Candiotti joins us now from Miami with reaction and some of the latest developments from there -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Bobbie.

Well, some of the latest developments includes this: Just a little while ago, the federal judge who was assigned this case just a couple days ago, U.S. District Court Judge James Lawrence King has recused himself from hearing the lawsuit that was filed by the family, the relatives of Elian Gonzalez in U.S. District Court just a couple of days ago.

Now, Judge King has not given his reason publicly, as to why he removed himself from this case. His reason or reasons were put under seal and filed in court this day. However, we do know that attorneys representing Elian Gonzalez's families here had no objection to him hearing the case. We do know that the Department of Justice filed its position on the matter earlier this day, but all of that was put under seal.

The judge, we do know, did disclose a couple days ago after he got the case that his son, who is a county court judge, has a political connection to a spokesperson for the Gonzalez family here. It turns out that that spokesman is a paid consultant to Judge King's son, who is running for reelection to the county court bench.

We do know the name of the new judge and that is Judge William Hoeveler. He handled the Manuel Noriega trial here in Miami some years ago -- Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Susan, on the issue of the grandmothers coming to the country, what's been the reaction from Elian's relatives down in Miami to this?

CANDIOTTI: Well, they say that they are happy, that the two grandmothers are indeed coming to the United States. They wish that they were coming to Miami because they said they would welcome them here to their home. In fact, they said they would prepare a special dinner for them, even roast a pig, they said, in their honor.

However, they stress that, in their opinion, they do not believe anything that the grandmothers say in the United States is anything that they can believe. They believe that whatever they have to say is being force fed from Cuban President Fidel Castro himself. They think it is going to be pure propaganda. And they say that unless the father himself comes here to the United States, they would not even seriously consider returning the boy. And they are going to continue their battle in court.

BATTISTA: And the father, of course, we should remind folks, does not want to come here because he says he is afraid for his security.

CANDIOTTI: That's correct.

BATTISTA: Susan Candiotti, thanks very much for joining us, appreciate your time. A reminder again that the two grandmothers should be landing at JFK somewhere around 3:30 Eastern time, and that a news conference is scheduled for about 4:15 Eastern time. All of that will be brought to you right here on CNN.

Joining us now is Francisco Aruca. He is host of the radio talk show "Radio Progresso" on WOCN in Miami. He is also president of a travel agency that books family visits back to Cuba.

And on the phone with us is Jose Garcia Pedrosa, a Gonzalez family attorney.

Mr. Aruca, let me ask you first, what the grandmothers coming to the United States, how will that affect the situation?

FRANCISCO ARUCA, HOST, WOCN'S "RADIO PROGRESSO": Well, it depends on what happens once they arrive. My first reaction when I heard of the news was the hope that they would be allowed to visit Elian, but not in Miami. I don't think Miami is the proper environment at all in relation to anything concerning this child. Unfortunately, Miami has become a dangerous circus.

One of those grandmothers have been called already "an old lady bandit" in Cuban radio in Miami. Anyone who tries to get to Miami to take that child away is in danger. This child has become extremely valuable for a very powerful group of exiles. We all know how much power they have,

My belief is that the best thing that could happen, at least at first, is that Elian, for the first time since he arrived in the United States, be allowed to be with the relatives that took care of him while he was in Cuba. One of those grandmothers is the paternal grandmother. Elian spent most of the day at that house after school because both of his parents were working.

So the first thing that I think should be afforded both to the child and to this grandmothers, is the possibility of visit in a quiet environment, not in a circus. And let's see what happens after that.

BATTISTA: Let me ask Mr. Garcia Pedrosa if that can be arranged. I mean, will the family be meeting with the grandmothers and perhaps should it be on neutral ground?

JOSE GARCIA PEDROSA, GONZALEZ FAMILY ATTORNEY: The family's position has always been that family is family. This is their blood. They have consistently refused to criticize their family in Cuba, even when the father recently said that he want to take a rifle and come to Miami and start shooting people. You all remember that statement.

And I believe that they are very sincere when they say that if the grandmothers want to visit the boy, they want them to do so, they want to see how well he is, how happy he is, how much love and nurturing he has. I will tell you that I was on the phone with the family yesterday when the boy, Elian, saw a news account on television that said that the -- his grandmothers were coming to talk him back to Cuba. And his reaction, I will share with you, was, and I heard him, was that, first of all, he said: I'm not going back to Cuba, which he has consistent told his father every day when the father calls. And secondly, and curiously, this kid has got a lot of spunk, I must tell, he said: If they try to take me back to Cuba, I'm going to start screaming for them to stay here in the United States.

BATTISTA: You know, with all due respect, do you think, though, that Elian should be exposed to all these news reports and all this political sentiments surrounding his situation?

PEDROSA: Absolutely not. This was a -- Immigration and the federal government had it right the first time. On December 1, when they issued a press release that said that this is a family court issue, dispute concerning custody, and then after Castro threatened another boat lift, put people on the streets of Havana and so forth. On December 7, you may remember, the State Department did a complete about-face, and took the step that has opened this whole thing up to all this political interference that has nothing to do with the best interests of the boy, which is the sole standard, the sole standard for adjudication of custody in a family court. We believe that was the right position then. They never should have changed it, and all this political interference should never have been allowed to come in.

BATTISTA: Mr. Aruca, do you think this should have become a custody case instead of an immigration case?

ARUCA: No, I think it was an immigration case from the beginning, and it should have been solved a long time ago, although myself, I'm not a lawyer. Let me, however, mention this: The relatives of Elian in Miami knew Elian only for 15 days while they visited Cuba about a year and a half ago, and that is why it is important for this child to meet with the grandmothers that really raised him, not the relatives that are in Miami.

Secondly, and you may not be aware of this, but yesterday, "New Times" in Miami comes out with an article that clearly shows that two of the cousins of Elian have criminal records, both of them. On several occasions, they have been arrested and they face several charges that go all the way from strong arm robbery to grand theft and robbery with force. I do not know by the way the article shows pictures of the cousin with Elian in the yard -- I don't know that that is the proper environment. So what Mr. Garcia Pedrosa said before, I could just answer the following way. If he says it's bad for the political environment around Elian, but the fact is that the ones that allowed that political environment are those relatives. They are the ones who appointed Armando Gutierrez as the spokesman and organizer of everything that has to do with the press. As a matter of fact, it was Armando Gutierrez who recommended to the relatives what lawyers they should hire, including Mr. Garcia Pedrosa, and some of the lawyers, including Mr. Garcia Pedrosa, have had and have political ambitions.

So all this is going on. The relatives that have created this environment, political environment around Elian, are the ones that are taking care of him, and I don't know that this is the proper environment at all.

BATTISTA: I'm running up against the clock here. I need to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll have Mr. Garcia Pedrosa respond to that.

Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: We are back. And Mr. Garcia Pedrosa, I'm sure you want to respond to Mr. Aruca comment, that he feels like Elian's relatives in Miami have generated much of the political interest in this.

PEDROSA: Well, let me first say, when we have a dispute in this country, the way we deal with it, is we go to the merits of the dispute and we try to not engage in the kind of personal attacks that I warned your producer Mr. Aruca is well known for in Miami, and unfortunately, he has lived up to that reputation. I'm not going to address those comments. I think that's beneath the dignity of this program and of this case.

BATTISTA: OK, let me ask you this, then: Is there not some sort of compromise that can be worked out here where Elian can spend time with both his relatives in Miami and his father? PEDROSA: Let me go to the one thing Mr. Aruca said, which is, I think, is a legitimate position, and that is whether the boy has spent more time with his father in the past or only 15 days, I think he said, with his uncle and so forth. Those are perfectly legitimate arguments, but you know what, the solution of having a court, a family court, which has expertise in difficulties disputes can concerning custody which get ruled on in courthouses every day throughout the country, that process and that venue permit that argument to be made by or on behalf of the that father, and then a whole host of other arguments to be made by or on behalf of the uncle. And the a judge with expertise will decide based on the single standard, which is the correct standard, of what is in the best interests of the boy. That's the way to deal with this issue.

BATTISTA: Mr. Aruca, it looks like this case is headed for the federal courts at this time. Is that not acceptable at this point?

ARUCA: Well, I think it's perfectly fine. The secretary of justice even made that concession. It was fairly clear that it was an INS jurisdiction. Sadly enough, maybe because we are in an electoral or because, again, care has to be taken when such a powerful group as the Cuban exiles in Miami take a position, the fact is that probably 48 hours after Elian got out of the hospital, he should have been sent back to Cuba, And the INS had the jurisdiction to do so, jurisdiction that was confirmed by the Department of Justice, but in my opinion, in a concession, probably a concession that is looking for a way to solve this in a more peaceful fashion. She went ahead and made a concession that gave the power back to the court to handle it. So I hope they would come with the proper solution.

But it is very clear by now, that not only the law, family values, but American public opinion itself in all the polls that have been taken say that that child should be with his father and his grandparents.

And I just want to add, I didn't order one, single personal offense in my previous remarks. Whatever I said, I stand by the facts. It's been a political environment, a political environment that has been created by the appointments made by the relatives over the recommendations of the political activists, the same person that now is probably the reason why the federal judge had to reduce himself from this case.

So I have not made any personal attacks. I have stated some facts, and I would like to see if we can about debate those facts.

I still believe that he didn't answer your question, though. Is he and the other lawyers willing to allow Elian to meet his grandmothers in a neutral ground rather than in this dangerous circus that Miami has become?

BATTISTA: Mr. Garcia Pedrosa?

PEDROSA: I don't know. You have to ask that question of the family. I will say Mr. Aruca has it all wrong. One of the beauties of this government, unlike the government of Cuba, is that the attorney general doesn't have the right to allow a federal court to have jurisdiction over a matter. That's a matter of right of the parties who file a lawsuit. And so even that point, he just doesn't completely -- he understand what the legal process is all about.

As far as the grandmothers are concerned, you know, you have the reports. The family would be delighted, even I think to roast a pig, was the statement made and welcome the grandmothers.

Frankly, I reject the notion, personally, but they may not; they may feel differently, that they can't see the boy where he lives and when he goes to school and so forth. I think it's important for the grandmothers to see the boy in his home environment, to see how he lives.

BATTISTA: We've to take another break at this time. As we do, Jeff is on the phone from Illinois.

Jeff, your comment?

JEFF: Yes, I would hate to see as much as anyone else this boy returned back to the oppressive political system there in Cuba, but what I want to know is, did that mother really have any right to remove that boy and bring him to this country. And although I do appreciate her sacrifice and wanting to provide a better life for her son, the father is alive. And does any government really have the right to step in and interfere in that father-son relationship, unless we can prove definitively that boy is at risk with that father? I would hate to think the government would take my children me, and not because I'm threatening them, but because some other family could raise them better.

BATTISTA: All right, Jeffrey, thanks very much. And you raise a big question what was going through the mothers mind, what she was thinking. We'll talk about that a little when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly here. And Denise has a comment about the case -- go ahead.

DENISE: Well, I was just asking, is the United States prepared for what this might do for other mothers that want the same freedom for their children? Will this open up floodgates for more of this?

BATTISTA: Well, Mr. Garcia Pedrosa, she raises a good question about what mothers want for their children. And I'm curious, because there has been so much speculation, which is all it really can be, about what the mother wanted for this child and what her motivations were for this trip. And how do we really know that, unless she left explicit instructions, or you know, or will or told someone what she wanted for this child if something should happen to her?

DENISE: Well, of course, what we know is, on the second hand, if it must be. We know from other people, including the two survivors that survived that same trip together with Elian who are adults and who have spoken out on this. In fact, they had a press conference today in which they talked about how the mother -- her last wish, if you will, because having to realize they were likely to drown when they gave Elian the last bit of potable water, that she wanted the boy to come and be here.

But it's and excellent that question that your lady raises, and that's fair commentary. That has to do with what the immigration laws should be. We're not really dealing with that issue, that there is a law now, that there's a procedure now, and all we're trying to do is to make sure it gets followed.

BATTISTA: Let me interrupt for just a second and go back to JFK Airport and CNN's Frank Buckley, who has a guest with him -- Frank.

BUCKLEY: Bobbie Battista, first we should tell you that we're told now that the airplane is about 20 minutes out. Among the people who will be there to meet that airplane will be Congressman Jose Serrano of the South Bronx.

And, Congressman, thanks for joining us, first of all.

What is your position here about what should be done?

REP. JOSE SERRANO (D), NEW YORK: Well, we're hopeful that when the grandparents return, the grandmothers, they will have Elian with them. My position has been what most American people think, that Elian should be with his father, who is a loving and caring father. We've proven that already. He should be with his grandparents, should be with his community, and I think it's wrong for us to suggest that because we don't get along with their government, that they're not capable as individuals of bringing up that child in a loving, caring situation.

And then lastly, you know, the whole idea that with we sent by Haitians, we send back Asians, we send back Mexicans, and Ecuadorians, but we keep this one child for political reasons, and everybody knows that's what it is. It's very sad, and I'm hopeful that this ends quickly.

BUCKLEY: There is a move about within Congress to introduce a bill that would, in fact, make Elian Gonzalez a U.S. citizen. What is your position on that? And where does that bill stand?

SERRANO: Well, that bill will be introduced by some members of the House and Senator Jesse Helms, and I think it's really ridiculous and sad. You know, this will the first time ever that we imposed citizenship on someone who didn't ask for it and whose guardian, in this case, doesn't want. We've done it for dignitaries -- Winston Churchill, Mother Theresa -- people who've done that kind of work in the world, for humanity. At the same time, we have a million, six- hundred thousand people who have filed all their papers and are awaiting citizenship. They will be ignored next week. Add to that, close to seven million, according to INS, undocumented aliens, like Elian, that will not receive their papers that day.

BUCKLEY: Thank you very much, Jose Serrano, congressman from the South Bronx, yet another one of the views in this very heated situation -- Bobbie.

BATTISTA: All right, Frank, thanks very much.

And as I understand, Mr. Garcia Pedrosa is very busy and must leave us. We thank you very much for your time and for your comments.

PEDROSA: My pleasure.

BATTISTA: Joining us now is custody attorney Jeffrey Leving. He was filed a friend of the court brief with the INS, outlining why Elian Gonzalez should be returned to his father in Cuba. He is also author of "Fathers Rights."

Jeffrey, this whole thing has become this legal rat nest, and I think an awful lot of people are confused about where this case is right now. You know, is it in federal court? Does the INS ruling still stand? What's happening here?

JEFFREY LEVING, CUSTODY ATTORNEY: My understanding is that the INS ruling still stands. The INS made a correct decision, and the INS has exclusive authority to make decisions concerning who can come into the United States and who can not. The state court in Florida that entered a restraining-type order, restraining Elian from being removed from the jurisdiction, in my opinion, ,that order is invalid, and that is Janet Reno's opinion.

Apparently a pleading was recently filed in federal court, and from the information that was supplied to me, which I need to verify, Janet Reno is a defendant. So, that is the newest legal maneuver to keep this little boy in the United States, which in effect will likely keep him away from his biological father, which I am very disturbed about, because this boy needs emotional stability.

He's 6 years old. He doesn't know the difference between Castro or "Sesame Street."

BATTISTA: Let me ask you another legal question. There is a movement in Congress, possibly next week, to file legislation for a petition for asylum to give Elian citizenship in this country. How does that complicate matters?

LEVING: Well, that could horribly complicate matters, because if Elian becomes a U.S. citizen, then the INS decision will probably become irrelevant and then the state court in Florida may then have the jurisdiction to determine custody. And that would be horrible.

We need to respect the father-child relationship here. I am anti-communist. I don't like what's going on in Cuba. But what has made this country so great is respecting the cultures, beliefs, religions of other people. And just because the biological father in this country is not an American, that doesn't mean he loves his boy any less than we do, than we love our children.

BATTISTA: I have to take another break at this time. We'll continue in a moment.

(APPLAUSE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET RENO, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The bond between parent and child is what must control it. It is based on the facts of this case. But it is so important that we address the human issue of a little 6- year-old boy, of his father that wants him back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me go again to the audience to get a little bit of a feel for where they stand on this. Alicia (ph).

ALICIA: If the boy's father is found to be fit and the Cuban government has no legal justification to take the boy away from his father, what moral justification do we as the United States have to take the boy away from his father?

BATTISTA: Let me go over here to Paul.

PAUL: Well, as I think about the whole thing, today I have my son and daughter with me. And I -- just the thought of them being separated from me, maybe going to another country where they'd have maybe possibly better living, there's no way that I think other people could give them the emotional support, just the care and support that I could give them as a father.

BATTISTA: And over here quickly, to Alfredo from Colombia. A little international perspective.

ALFREDO: My question is, Who has the custody of Elian when Elian was in Cuba, the mother or the father? And if the father didn't have the custody, what is today so worry -- so worrying about the kid being here, you know? I don't know, the custody in Cuba.

BATTISTA: And Karen, who is from Scotland.

KAREN: A big thing has been made about the father-son relationship. Surely when your son needs him, just know the father should put his concerns for his son before himself. He said that he wouldn't come over because he's got fears for his life, but if son needs him, that's where he should be, with his son.

BATTISTA: Jeffrey, this is a big concern for a lot of people, that if the father, you know, loves his son -- which we have to assume that he does -- why he wouldn't come here to get him. And to really say that he's afraid for his safety, is that enough? I mean, in other words, if he's thinking about his son, shouldn't he put that over concerns for his safety?

LEVING: That's a good question. I'm a father. I would -- I have concerns that the father has not come here to pick up his boy. I worked very, very hard working on an amicus brief, which is a friend of the court brief, in which I recommended that the child, Elian, be returned to his father. I put a lot of work into that brief. The INS agreed with me, and I was thrilled with the INS decision.

But I'm very disappointed that the father has not come here to pick up his boy. If the father had come over here to pick up his boy the day the INS made the decision to return the boy to dad, I believe that the boy would now be in Cuba with his father.

Secondly, a question was posed earlier as to the custody arrangement the father and mother shared before this tragedy. It was joint custody. There was a court order entered in Cuba giving the father and mother joint custody.

BATTISTA: Let me bring in another voice now. Jose Basulto is president and founder of Brothers to the Rescue. His group flies over the Florida Straits looking for Cuban refugees.

Mr. Basulto, you just met with the INS, as I understand it. Can you tell us about that meeting?

JOSE BASULTO, FOUNDER, BROTHERS TO THE RESCUE: Yes, that's correct. It was kind of a private meeting. However, I can tell you that we expressed our concerns for the child and for the process that we believe should have taken place and hasn't. We believe that due process is owed to this child so as his interests are heard in a court of law, in a family court, and the final decision based on informed facts can be made by the U.S. government.

Not before then we will accept any railroading of the child to the island, and the community is very much in alert for what actions may take place.

BATTISTA: And what are your thoughts about the two grandmothers who are just about to land in New York now coming over?

BASULTO: I'm delighted that the grandmothers are coming. I think that the grandmothers, as grandmothers that they are, should be coming here to Miami. I'm surprised they went to New York.

However, the family here would like to open their arms to them, have the opportunity for them to see the child, talk to him and talk among themselves. Perhaps even the situation can be resolved under the family's roof.

However, at this point, we don't know what the intentions of the grandmothers are, if this is just another propaganda ploy by the Castro government to use the grandmothers in New York to organize mass demonstration and other things like the ones that he has done in Cuba.

We believe that foremost in the minds of true grandmothers, that they should act, they should be, they should come here to Miami and meet with Elian. And the matters of concern about their security I think have been overplayed by the government of Cuba in order to justify sending the grandmothers to New York.

I'll be more than happy to offer them my own home for them to come and stay with me, or for that matter stay here, the family's residence, where Elian is, so they can have their own conversations and talk the matter of the child. Our community, I'm sure, will welcome their presence here. And I will be the first one to assist them in transporting, providing security, because if there is any insecurity for them here would have to be related to any possible action by Castro agents to justify or more or less give credibility to the arguments that they have used to prevent their coming to Miami.

BATTISTA: I need to bring in one more guest at this time. Dr. Preston Wiles is with us. He is a child psychiatrist teaching at Yale University.

And I -- you know, everybody is talking about what is best for Elian, and I don't think any of us can even imagine what this little 6-year-old boy is going through from a psychological standpoint. And I'm not sure enough attention is being paid to that.

What is this child going through?

DR. PRESTON WILES, CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST: Bobbie, we don't really know exactly what he might be going through. The concern is, like in many custody cases, when the adults and grown-ups are arguing, we have to go back to the child, focus on their inner well-being and their psychological well-being.

This is the main point I would advocate: is for the lawyers, judges and politicians to go back and focus on the essential elements of what creates psychological safety for a child. And that obviously is the ongoing relationship with his father and his grandparents, the people who have had not a legal standing so much as an emotional, a psychological standing in the child's life.

BATTISTA: By the way, the two grandmothers have landed at JFK. So we'll bring you the latest on that as soon as we get it.

Doctor, if the relatives are trying to educate Elian about freedom and opportunity and the sorts of things that America stands for, is he able to process that?

WILES: Freedom and opportunity are very important concepts, but the development of a 6-year-old child is concrete. He needs to be with the people who can provide him the concrete emotional as well as physical sustenance and nurturance. So while we think of freedom as an important ideal, for him he must be wondering what happened to his mother, how sad and tragic it was that she should die, where is his father, why he can't be with his father.

So the understanding of a 6-year-old is not geared toward the more abstract concepts, such as freedom, but really family, safety and health.

BATTISTA: I have to take another break at this time. Back in just a moment.

PAUL: Hello. My name is Paul from American University. I believe that Elian should be returned to his father so that this debate can finally end: because it's not about the boy anymore. It's all about politics. I also feel that by returning him, it would help improve U.S.-Cuban relations.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: We need to say goodbye to Francisco -- Francisco Aruca. We thank you very much for joining us today. I'm sorry I didn't get to you so much in the last half hour. Appreciate your time and your comments.

Mr. Basulto, some folks in the audience -- we were just talking to Dr. Wiles about the psychological effect of all of this on little Elian. And people in the audience are wondering if he is getting any sort of help in this area.

BASULTO: Well, he's getting help here in Miami. He's seeing psychologists, and I understand that he's doing fine. I have seen this child every day since he's been here, since he got to his home. And I noticed Elian's progress on a day-to-day basis. He is a happy child, as I can observe him. I have five grandchildren. I know a little bit about children.

And I believe the psychological damage to Elian would come if returned to Cuba. Elian would have to become a spokesperson for the government of Cuba. Under the Cuban constitution, the children there must be indoctrinated into communism. And he cannot escape the questions by the press or the questions by anybody that would find him there in the island.

Either Elian's responds positively to the Castro revolution and all the Castro propaganda, or he's going to have to disappear from there to somewhere. And this is what I'm very much afraid: Elian's future fate on the Castro government is going to that of a propaganda tool of the government of Cuba. And in order to accomplish this, psychologists and other people are going to have to work on Elian to prepare him for that.

BATTISTA: Dr. Wiles, I don't know, you know, which is worse, what sort of psychological damage is worse. I mean, it seems to me that losing both of your parents is a more immediate concern than whether or not you're going to be used as a propaganda tool.

WILES: Well, Bobbie, that's right...

BASULTO: I wish you would ask Elian that question. Elian has invited his father to come here to the United States, and I think it would be the reasonable thing for the father to talk to the son so both can understand each other.

However, the government of Cuba apparently doesn't allow for that, and the father of Elian -- quote -- is saying he's very much afraid to come here to Miami. I personally would like to invite him to be here. I would invite him to my own home if he wants to stay here. And we'll be willing to pay for his trip here to the United States so he can talk to his son and to his blood family here. They're taking very good care of Elian.

BATTISTA: OK, Dr. Wiles. WILES: I'd like to try to answer Ms. Battista's question, because we know that the loss of a parent is the single greatest loss any child can sustain. It would be unimaginable if for some reason adult concerns prevent Elian to be returned to his biological father for whom he's had an ongoing, sustaining relationship.

Custody disputes really exist between adults who have pre- existing relationships, not between adults who come into a child's life at a later point. So, that's right: The loss of both parents would be really an unimaginable and cruel tragic loss for this boy.

So my concern is to advocate for all the people who are compelled and involved in Elian's case to listen to the child, to return to the child's inner emotional life, to study that carefully, because children may not always show directly the level of sadness and mourning which we know he must be going through. Only by listening to the child will we be able to do the right thing for him.

BATTISTA: I've got to break again. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: You are back, and I think we have footage to show you of the grandmothers landing at JFK just a few moments ago on a private chartered jet from the National Council of Churches, the organization that's been trying to work out this situation between Elian Gonzalez and his relatives in Miami and his family in Cuba. The two grandmothers will be here to make an appeal to the American people to let Elian come back to Cuba to be with his father and with them.

There will be a news conference at about 4:15 Eastern time with the grandmother's, and CNN will bring that to you live. We are out of time for today. Thanks to our guests very much for being with us, Jeffrey Leving, Jose Basulto, and Dr. Preston Wiles, we thank you all very much.

Enjoy the weekend. We will see you again on Monday.

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