May 9, 1999
Web posted at: 10:00 p.m. EDT

Chat Moderator: Welcome Randy and Kristin!

Chat Moderator: Randy, please tell us about your most recent investigative report.

Randy Travis: We've been investigating complaints about a local man accused of passing himself off as a lawyer to local immigrants. We talked to some of his clients, who showed us proof that they had paid him thousands of dollars to get them legal work permits through the government, yet they wound up with nothing. We've also conducted our own undercover investigation to find out exactly what sort of promises he makes to his customers.

Chat Moderator: Did you learn anything that surprised you?

Randy Travis: Absolutely. I was amazed at how people who are taken by this type of scam are reluctant to come forward for fear that the police will arrest them instead. We found some brave people who agreed to come forward because they wanted to make sure the same thing would not happen to anyone else.

Chat Participant <Wachita>: Mr. Travis, how many corrupt immigration lawyers are there? Is it a big problem in certain cities?

Randy Travis: The big problem here stems from people pretending to be immigration lawyers; people who give bad advice to unsuspecting immigrants. Sometimes these people are Hispanic themselves. We found that to be especially troublesome to the Mexican Consul here in Atlanta. He calls those people "vultures."

Chat Moderator: Kristin, did anything that Randy uncovered surprise you as an immigration lawyer?

Kristin Grods: It surprised me how bold some of these people are who take advantage of the alien community.

Chat Participant <Leila>: Do you know anything about the size of the immigrant community in Atlanta? Where are most immigrants coming *from*?

Randy Travis: We found the scams that operate here in Atlanta target Hispanic immigrants, which seems to be the largest and fastest growing community here in Georgia. The economy is booming here, and there are plenty of jobs for blue-collar workers in the poultry and construction industry. Many of them come from Mexico and Guatemala. Interestingly, many of those same immigrants are tricked into filing false asylum petitions with the government. Under the law, if you come to this country illegally and file for asylum, you're allowed to stay here and even get a work permit until your hearing is scheduled. Some of the scam artists use this policy to convince their victims they're getting them legitimate work papers. But in reality, it costs them even more because when they go before an immigration judge they have to prove they really do fear for their lives if they go back home. We found in Atlanta alone in the last two years more than 1200 petitions for asylum were filed by Mexicans and Guatemalans. The judge granted only 2.

Chat Participant <Squidoil>: Is anyone going to be deported because of the scam?

Randy Travis: Unfortunately, yes. In the asylum scam, some of the victims signed the petition without understanding what they were doing. Their "lawyer" would make up the "evidence" on the petition but would not show up for the hearing. That left the immigrant by himself to explain a petition request he didn't understand Sometimes the judge gets so upset the immigrant is immediately deported and forbidden from reentering the country from anywhere from three to ten years.

Chat Participant <KathieM>: Please tell us about the secret detentions, trials, and deportations of "suspected" immigrants, and why this is one motive for seeking out immigrant lawyers.

Kristin Grods: There are no secret detentions of even suspected immigrants. Everyone is given the same opportunity to apply for immigration benefits by the INS.

Chat Participant <gar>: How about the overseas scams, like the U.S. greencard lottery? This is big in the Middle East.

Kristin Grods: The greencard lottery is not a scam. It is an opportunity for people for certain countries (designated by the U.S. Government) to apply for entry into the U.S. if they meet certain requirements.

Chat Participant <Glaura>: How did you conduct your investigation? Did you use hidden cameras?

Randy Travis: We did use hidden cameras, but that video does not make up the heart of the investigation. The victims we interviewed showed us proof of their business relationship with this one man accused of pretending to be a lawyer. At the same time, local authorities arrested him on theft by deception charges as well as pretending to be a lawyer. We show more of our undercover videotape in tonight's part.

Chat Moderator: Did victims come to you, or how did you seek them out? Were they afraid of being deported?

Randy Travis: We heard about the victims from someone in the legal community. It was difficult at first to get them to go on-camera, on the record with their allegations because they were afraid of being deported. That's what many of these fake lawyers count on. Their victims, they hope, will be more afraid of authorities than they are upset with being victimized.

Chat Moderator: Kristin, what rights to these victims have? If they report the abuses won't they be deported?

Kristin Grods: It depends on their current immigration status at the time. To be honest, an illegal immigrant is in a very precarious position. However, in many cases if the victim comes forward with information then they may be able to ameliorate their current immigration violation (if any).

Chat Participant <Quimichi>: How "tough" are INS officials in Georgia? Were they willing to talk to you?

Randy Travis: We talked to them several times, including a couple of the investigators who actually helped local authorities in their case against the man we investigated. I found INS here to be as upset about this problem as anyone else we talked to. They say they understand that many of these immigrants are trying to follow the rules, going to someone they trust, they think is a lawyer, and yet, they wind up losing their status here in this country. I know that they have tried to investigate similar scams, but they are difficult people to catch.

Chat Participant <Squidoil>: What happens to the fake lawyers? Do they go to Jail?

Randy Travis: The man we investigated has already been arrested. He faces an arraignment later this spring. He made bond, though, and was back at work when we caught up to him last month. Unfortunately, the crime of unauthorized practice of law is a misdemeanor. So authorities try to find more serious charges, such as theft to make a stronger case.

Chat Participant <HiFlyer>: There is a perception that Immigration Lawyers have very rich practices. Who pays them if these 'illegals' have no means of support?

Kristin Grods: The answer to that is as varied as man's creativity! I can't answer about the general wealth of immigration attorneys, but as a member of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, I know that many of my colleagues perform many hours of pro bono work. There are two great agencies for aliens who need help and do not have the financial means. One organization is Catholic Social Services, which is located on West Peachtree St. in Atlanta, GA. The other organization is Bridging The Gap. Both give wonderful legal assistance for little charge to aliens.

Chat Moderator: Is victimization of immigrants widespread across the U.S.?

Kristin Grods: Unfortunately, yes. I am the Unauthorized Practice of the Law Chair for the Atlanta chapter of the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA), and through that network, I am in contact with other immigration lawyers throughout the U.S. The general report is that victimization is widespread and increasing.

Chat Moderator: Randy, what prompted you to do an investigation on this subject?

Randy Travis: I'd been looking into the possibility of doing something like this for quite some time. We've seen an enormous increase in the Hispanic immigrant population in Atlanta. Generally, when that happens, the bad guys follow. We aired our first story in February, when we investigated complaints against a translation service in Western Georgia. In that case, three victims agreed to go on camera, and talk about the money they lost to a man who promised to get them legal greencards. That man was also Hispanic. This latest investigation is a follow-up to that report looking at a different scam here in Metro Atlanta.

Chat Participant <Condor>: As a lawyer, could you define "ALIEN?" I find the use of that word strange, to put it mildly.

Kristin Grods: Alien is the term that is applied to someone who is not a citizen of this country. Many people find this offensive and there is a movement to now use the term "non citizen" instead of "alien"

Chat Participant <Lisa>: What are some other ways these people trick immigrants into thinking they are lawyers?

Randy Travis: They use the term "notario." In Central America, the word "notario" is generally associated with someone who is a lawyer. In this country, "notario" means notary republic, which anybody can be once you fill out a form and get a seal. So, the scam artist makes sure he's put the word "notario" on his business card or on his office door. That often tricks the client into thinking he's more than just a notary public.

Chat Participant <Muddycat>: Is there a large traffic in fake green cards?

Randy Travis: That seems to be a common problem across the country. It's interesting though the people we interviewed were trying to get legitimate green cards through what they thought were legitimate sources.

Kristin Grods: Even if the alien receives a fake green card, it will be easily detected by the INS. They are now using the most up to date technology to produce the green cards, which are even more difficult to replicate.

Chat Participant <Squidoil>: What makes it so difficult to live in the U.S. legally?

Kristin Grods: There are three basic ways of legal entry into the U.S.: Employment-sponsored, Family-sponsored, or through asylum. Then there is the green card lottery. The U.S. limits entry into the U.S. to these categories for obvious reasons.

Chat Participant <Stella>: Can you tell me if you can be Citizen American if your father is born in this country?

Kristin Grods: It depends on the length of time your father lived in the U.S. after being born here. I recommend contacting a lawyer for a better analysis.

Chat Participant <Lisa>: What does part two of your report focus on?

Randy Travis: We're taking our viewers on an undercover visit to the office of Harvey Holiday. He's the man accused of pretending to be a lawyer for the Hispanic community. We'll show you what sort of advice we got and what authorities say would have happened to us if we had followed that advice. We're also going to mention this whole asylum scam and how so many people are taken in by the promise of a quick work permit, when in reality they're here on borrowed time.

Chat Moderator: Thanks Randy and Kristin for joining us today and telling us about the report on victimization of immigrants.

Randy Travis: Thanks for having me hope I can come back soon.

Kristin Grods: Thank you for having me as a guest. Goodbye.