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Wednesday, May 16, 2007

Lawsuit challenges high school Bible class

As superintendent of public schools in Odessa, Texas, Wendell Sollis is proud of the class he helped start in two county high schools. The elective course uses the King James Bible as the textbook and claims to teach the Bible's role in history.

I sat in Sollis' office and listened as he described how the teachers were trained to not promote one religious viewpoint over another. To do so, he said, would be unconstitutional.

When I asked Sollis if he would be surprised if he were ever sued because of this class, he said, "Yes." But now, just two days later, that's exactly what's happened.

Eight parents filed suit in federal court claiming the class is unconstitutional because it promotes particular religious beliefs to children in their community.

The suit alleges that the curriculum created by the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools teaches students a literal interpretation of the Bible. It also claims that alternative points of view are ignored or dismissed.

A representative from the National Council claims its curriculum gives equal and fair treatment to all Judeo-Christian perspectives. The Council claims its curriculum has been used in 382 school districts in 37 states. If this is true, there will no doubt be a lot of people watching how this lawsuit turns out.

-- By David Mattingly, CNN Correspondent

Posted By CNN: 4:23 PM ET
45 Comments

I'm not against God or people learning about God but our schools are full of people of many different religions and that should be respected.

However, if something is an elective class and people are not required to take it then I'm not sure I see the harm in that. There are Catholic clubs and Jewish clubs in high schools through out this country. I'm not sure what the difference is? If it were a requirement then that would be different.

Posted By Lisa Tampa, Florida : 4:42 PM ET

David,
There are so many beliefs and interpretations of the bible. I think spiritual education should be up to each family to decide and learn at the church of their choice.
Schools should teach science and evolution, along with math, reading, history, etc.
Yes, state and church are SEPARATE and the twain should never meet!

"Democracy does not need the church or the clergy."
James Madison~

Posted By Betty Ann, Nacogdoches,TX : 4:45 PM ET

Hi David,
In my opinion, Religion is a belief, that most, and I stress MOST, people in America keep to themselves. It's a private choice that should never be destroyed, however, it should never be forced on anyone who doesn't believe in it either. I'm just afraid that we will all have to go underground before long just to go to Sunday Service. Two wrongs, never make a right. Religion is not going away, but we all need to be mindful that others don't want to hear about it at all. Live an let live. Take Care

Posted By Lorie Ann, Buellton, Calif. : 4:53 PM ET

Well, 382 school districts in 37 states can't possibly be wrong! Right?

Posted By Tikka Madsen, Seattle, WA : 5:10 PM ET

I think that these sorts of classes are perfect fodder for lawsuits, and the religious right knows it. Whether they win or lose, it increases the dialogue and gets the issue national attention (such as places like this).

Once these suits go to court, the parents who brought them are painted as athiestic, anti-Christian, un-patriotic, over-reacting liberals who are trying to stop their children from learning different points of view.

In my opinion, classes like this do not belong in a public school, whether it is an elective or not (and I would feel the same if it was using any "Holy Book" as the sole text book). Teaching a comparitive religion course or a religion and history course is one thing, using the Bible as a history text book is another. Leave that stuff for out of school locations.

To Lisa's comment, a club is a lot different than a class. A club is a group of students who have similar interests or backgrounds that spend time together doing a variety of stuff. It is usually moderated by a teacher, but the students have more control over what is done/discussed. A class is organized, led and developed by the school/district and the students have little or no input as to what transpires. A class also has the de facto agreement of the school system (school board)as to its content. In this case, the school board is implicitly saying they agree that the Bible should be used as a history text book. Not a good idea in this divided, sue-happy society.

Posted By Todd Dover, NH : 5:23 PM ET

I can't believe I'm quoting a Democrat on this, but James Traficant of OH. says:

A Congress that allows God to be banned from our schools while they can teach about cults, Hitler and devil worship is wrong, out of touch, and needs some common sense.

Posted By xtina - chicago IL : 5:34 PM ET

Unless you are attending a religious school (such as a Catholic school, etc), religion should be kept out of the classroom even as an elective. While the teachers may be instructed on how to teach it without promoting one religion over another, class discussion will invariably open up the floodgates as students espouse one religion over another. It would be difficult at best to learn anything in a class such as this with that sort of discussion going on. Ruling out class discussion to prevent this, would elicit accusations of "not being able to express their own religious opinions" in the class. Sounds like a catch-22 to me.

Unless the parents and the students are willing to open their minds and learn not only the Christian precepts, but the Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Jewish, Islamic and other old religions that date back to the days of Hammurabi then learning the history of the Bible will not occur. The stories in the Bible date back thousands of years (much further than the King James version of the Bible) and encompass many different cultures. With the polarization of American society today on religion, I don't see how any meaningful dialog could take place, much less learning.

Posted By Annie Kate, Birmingham AL : 5:48 PM ET

"I can't believe I'm quoting a Democrat on this, but James Traficant of OH. says: A Congress that allows God to be banned from our schools while they can teach about cults, Hitler and devil worship is wrong, out of touch, and needs some common sense.

Posted By xtina - chicago IL : 5:34 PM ET"

Here is a little info an James Traficant (thanks Wikipedia):
"James Anthony Traficant, Jr. (born May 8, 1941) is a former Democratic Representative in the United States Congress from Ohio (from 1985 to 2002). He was expelled after being convicted of taking bribes, filing false tax returns, racketeering, and forcing his aides to perform chores at his farm in Ohio and on his houseboat in Washington, D.C.,[1] and is currently serving out an 8-year prison term scheduled to end in 2010."

Obviously he is someone who is right, not out of touch and has plenty of common sense.

I am just sad I missed the devil worshipping class in my school. I feel so neglected ;-)

Posted By Todd Dover, NH : 5:53 PM ET

If a group of students wants to form a Bible club, that's one thing but a public school is not the place to have a formal registered class on any specific religion.

The National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools make the claim their class gives equal and fair treatment to all Judeo-Christian perspectives. I seriously doubt they do, but even so, what about non Judeo-Christian perspectives?

Posted By Joseph Kowalski, North Huntingdon, PA : 5:59 PM ET

Hey David,
Schools should teach facts and not beliefs. That's up to the families and church. Starting next september here,there will be no more religious classes. My son is taking another course,where they do a global historic of countries,population,politics,religious beliefs but it is more an history class.
I do not set foot in any church,I don't believe in any God,but my son goes to church with his dad.We have friends of different faiths,muslims,jewish,orthodox,catholic,protestant. That's the "school of life". Sharing our beliefs,our histories.
You guys seem to have the religion very present in schools.We,here,are having issues with reasonable accomodations in the society regarding the different religions existing here.Some people are going way too far and playing on the Rights & Liberty chart. It always seems to come back to religion,doesn't it?

Joanne R.
Laval Quebec

Posted By Joanne R.Laval Quebec : 6:23 PM ET

Well, "the Devil is in the details" here.

On the one hand, the history of our country and the West in general is so tightly intertwined with Christianity that ignorance of this religion and the bible make large, important pieces of our heritage indecipherable. A course that rectifies this particular ignorance is commendable.

On the other hand, when I hear that the King James version of the bible is the only text book, I wonder about this course. The King James version is one of the poorest translations available today. How rigorous can the rest of the course be? Further, I'd think one would want outside sources that give historical context to the ways the bible has been quoted in significant speeches or literature.

Yes, we should have a Christianity / Bible course generally available in our country as a high school elective -- even if the one mentioned above isn't the best way to do this. No, the viewpoints of other religions is not the issue. (Though a survey of major religions and belief systems would be another good elective course.) In fact, a Christianity / Bible course would be most valuable for students who have no prior exposure to this very important topic.

Posted By Elise, Dallas, TX : 6:25 PM ET

The lawsuit against this school official has no real legal standing. The class is given as an option, hence the word elective. The same kind of options are given to students as they enter public colleges and universities.
Why is it any different from allowing that same form of curriculum in high school? If anything this will actually help students in questioning whether it is valuable in enriching their knowledge or not. This is what college is like: you are given required courses and the rest of college is steered by what the students interests are and that si what shapes them. This option will force students to critically think and question the motives of this class.

Posted By Yvonne, Frankenmuth, MI : 6:33 PM ET

I know that my opinion will probably be unpopular on a website such as this, but I took a class in high school (not long ago, I am only 25) in which the Bible was a primary text and source of information. It did NOT, however, teach religion. We read the Bible as literature and as exposure to a major belief held by people the world over. Discussion was encouraged and many points of view were brought to light and we had vigorous debate. At no time was our reading of the Bible taught as solid fact or were we expected to glean spiritual lessons from our reading. This class was one of the most provocative and interesting I ever took and though I am fairly ambivalent when it commes to spiritual issues, I would highly encourage my child to take a class such as this. So long as the class does not present the Bible as accepted doctrine, but simply a source of information, I do not see a problem with this class. Not to mention the fact that it's an ELECTIVE and if the parents don't like it, then they should just remove their child and not clog our already over-burdened court system. Please.

Posted By Amy VanSickle, MT : 6:45 PM ET

You can elect to take "Muslim Studies"; you can take "Marxist Studies", you can take "Buddhist Studies", you can take studies from many religions, and the ACLU will spend millions of dollars on lawyers defending your "right" to take thse classes!
But classes based in Judeo-Christianity ? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Posted By xtina - chicago IL : 6:48 PM ET

Even born and raised by Hindu parents, I went to Catholic elementary school in the Netherlands during 1978-1980, because my mother had the opinion that there is more discipline involved in Catholic schools, then in Public Schools.

The truth is that the development and spread of Christianity is inter-related with the course of World History; to exclude one from the other is very difficult.

As for parents with other religious beliefs, there should be an effort made to organize extra-curricular classes within their community for their youngsters to stay afloat with their own religion. You can not please everyone.

Posted By Ratna, New York, NY : 7:01 PM ET

The key word here is elective. If you don't like what is taught, drop out of the class. Everyone wants to sue these days.

Posted By Barbara Kozlowski, Phoenix AZ : 7:48 PM ET

The last thing our children need is to be brainwashed by the misguided beliefs of Christianity or any other organized religion. Most Christians have no knowledge of their own religion or how it came to be. They have a 5 year olds view and understanding of God. The last thing our kids need is to be taught the fiction of Christianity and their primitive belief system. Christianity is the greatest story ever sold. I am NOT an athiest by the way but we must protect our children, our future depends on it.

Posted By David L. South Windsor, CT : 7:50 PM ET

I'm curious how teachers, especially in god-fearing red states, can be trusted with a so-called Biblical history class. Who's to monitor the class to ensure an unbiased approach? Not too much on the critical thinking side of things will be addressed when only one book is the text, and I really wonder what the underlying agenda for this class is. Sounds like an attempt, once again, to get the Christian religion into the class where it doesn't belong.

For those of you who think we need religion taught to our children, please remember that ethics, morals, family values, etc., do not have to come with your version of religious belief. If you want to attach morals to a particular set of fairy tales, you are free to do so in the privacy of your own home or within your church. Imagine how you would feel if the class used the Koran or Dianetics instead. If you're disturbed by that thought, then you can understand how rational people are disturbed with this issue.

Posted By Bob Goldie, San Francisco, CA : 7:52 PM ET

The class is an ELECTIVE! If you don't like it, don't take it. If you are offended, don't take it. They could have a class about Islam with the Qu'ran as long as it is an elective. Why is this a big deal?

If it was a class on Islam, I can all but guarantee that there would be no lawsuit. Do you know why? Because people are AFRAID to set off Muslims. Federal funds are being used to put foot washing stations in airports, I have a problem with that as should most people who believe in separation of Church and State.

However, taking (or not taking) a class that is an ELECTIVE should not cause an uproar. If you don't like drama, you don't have to take that, so if you don't like a bible class, don't take that
either.

Posted By Nestor, Austin, TX : 9:25 PM ET

Religion has no place in the educational system because there are too many religious interpretations -just that-interpretations, not fact. I did learn about Hitler in school, and rightly so since he was part of HISTORY and it had to do with a VERY BAD WORLD WAR, right??? (note the use of sarcasm). I don't get the revelance of comparing history to a thus far unproven belief system.
...and I don't know where some of you went to school, (maybe the 5th layer of hell, across the River Styx???) but I was NEVER taught anything about satanism, even in college.

Posted By Debbie, Denham Springs, LA : 9:29 PM ET

The blog stated:

'The suit alleges that the curriculum created by the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools teaches students a literal interpretation of the Bible. It also claims that alternative points of view are ignored or dismissed.

A representative from the National Council claims its curriculum gives equal and fair treatment to all Judeo-Christian perspectives. '

I think the National Council misses the point about 'alternative' views. Their response to me implies they are only giving fair treatment to Judeo-Christian perspectives. Not all alternative views are Judeo-Christian based.

Posted By Kris L, Green Bay, WI : 11:35 PM ET

The education system in the State of Texas is so lacking, this should not even be an option or discussion. Majority of Texas public school students would be pushed back at least 3 years if they entered the school system of any other First World country (England, Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, Spain, S. Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Canada, Australia and many others). By the standards of any other developed country, Texas students would be considered disabled. If states like Texas spent education money on education, instead of forcing schools to deal with personal issues such as religion, sexuality, manners and discipline, perhaps students could graduate with knowledge that would benefit not only themselves, but move the country intellectually and economically forward. Parents have transformed the public school system, by their expectations as well as their shirking of responsibility, from a place of learning to a day care center. The priority is placed on teaching children lessons that should not only be learned at home, but firmly established in students before they even enter the school system. When I was growing up, we spent our evenings after school in Bible study and religious classes, our days were spent learning math, science, literature, languages and other relevant topics. Proper table manners were taught by our parents, not by the school. Sexuality, such as waiting until marriage or using birth control, was taught by our parents and/or the church, not the schools. Electives were learning other languages or skills, such as typing or photography. The United States is lucky to remain in the top 10 when ranked for standard of living, life expectancy, health care, infant mortality, crime, education and many other factors, when compared with the rest of the industrialized world. The United States continues to drop in rank, in all areas, such as some third world counties in Africa have lower rates of infant mortality than the U.S. If extreme self-interest groups and zealots continue to hijack the education system, the U.S. will continue on this downward slide until we become nothing but a bunch of poor uneducated self-important troglodytes with big guns. We have violated the principals of our own Constitution when we allow the majority to be so uneducated that they are easily manipulated by the minority for money and power. (age:38)

Posted By James Dallas, Texas : 1:41 AM ET

The separation of church and state is one of the fundamental underlying principles of the United States - "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I have no problem with religion being taught in private schools. I do have a problem with the fact that citizens' tax dollars are being used for the promotion of religion. Let's face it - the Bible is biased, just like any history books. By teaching the Bible, you are promoting non-impartial views.

"In the fear of the Lord one has strong confidence, and one's children will have a refuge." (Proverbs 14.26)

It doesn't matter if students are instructed not to take such Bible verses to heart, because inevitably, someone is going to do so anyway. If but a single student in one of these 'history' classes decides to convert to Christianity after taking the class, then we may as well tear the First Amendment into shreds, and toss the rest of the Bill of Rights into a fire while we're at it.

Posted By Nick Matthews - Sacramento, CA : 2:28 AM ET

This is yet another example of organized religion causing separation among people. Why is it that these "beliefs" that are supposed to bring people together are constantly causing feelings to be hurt, wars to start and people to be alienated? I don't get it.

Posted By Tim Thompson, Malvern PA : 6:48 AM ET

There should be a "religious studies" class, and they should bring in a Torah, a Bible and a Qur'an, and teach ALL the religions. There would be a huge outcry if a teacher was only teaching from the Qur'an in a school. Why, people would probably think it was a "madrassa" (which is simply the Arabic name for "school", but the media likes to whip these things into terrorist terms).

Christianty seems to be allowed to be promoted (and is pushed on people in the far corners of the world), but other religions are a threat to a lot of Christians, and they get upset when people want to teach them. Can we say "tolerance"?

Posted By Barbara, Columbia MD : 8:53 AM ET

Speaking as someone who firmly believes in the separation of church and state, I still feel that it's a pity that a class like this is causing a lawsuit. I wish I could have taken an elective course like this when I was in high school. I grew up in a non-religious household, so I missed out on a great deal of the information that people who were brought up reading the Bible learned.

Like it or not, the US was founded on a framework based on the Bible. Our history and laws are strongly informed by this book. American society is permeated with Biblical references. If you don't know these references, you can miss out on a lot. Yes, we should be inclusive of other religions and customs, but it's hard to know where you're going if you don't know where you came from.

Posted By Melissa, Columbus OH : 10:35 AM ET

It is an elective class, if you don't like it, don't take it, nobody is forcing you.

Posted By Sylvie, Worcester, MA : 10:45 AM ET

Gasp! An "elective course", as in: optional, not required, studends are not forced to take it. Say it isn't so!

The secularists like to wag their fingers at Christians and say, "if you don’t like it, don’t watch or listen", well, back at ya!

Posted By Pete Wagner, Grand Rapids, MI : 11:24 AM ET

I don't get it. Lots of public universities have clases on religion, and public means they're getting state money. Are those of you opposing the Bible class aware of this?

Posted By DH - Lake Barrington , IL : 11:47 AM ET

It also claims that alternative points of view are ignored or dismissed.

Interesting since alternative points of view for teachings on evolution are not permitted. What hypocrisy.

School teachings on evolution are not religious-neutral. They teach and promote religion - a form of atheism that denies God.

This is why we have chosen to home school our children instead of sending them to public schools that teach a form of state-sponsored religion (in violation of the Constitution) as well as teach positions on other moral issues contratry to the Bible. This is our exercise of our religious freedoms.

Posted By Tom Butler Akron, Ohio : 11:48 AM ET

This class may be an elective, but who is paying the custodian to keep the room clean? Who is paying for the chalk or markers? Who is paying the office staff and the school nurse if someone is hurt? You are with your taxpayer dollars! Sorry, but I believe in the separation of church and state and this just doesn't cut the mustard.

Posted By Barbara, Los Angeles, CA : 12:24 PM ET

Tom Butler from Akron, Ohio...the reason schools teach evolutionary theory is because it is based on science and fact. It teaches people to learn through observation and the scientific method.

Biblical history is not based in any way, shape, or form on evidence or fact. It is a collection of stories written many, many centuries ago for people in a different time and place.

If you want to teach your children that the Bible is fact, and is to be believed verbatim, then that is your choice. I just feel sorry for your children who will end up missing out on so much this world has to offer.

Posted By Jesse, Portland, Oegon : 1:30 PM ET

As a Christian, it's irritated me that people are talking about religious tolerance all over the place, but if you mention the fact that your a Christian the tolerance is out the window. Hence one more lawsuit. But I've been doing a lot of thinking, and I had to ask myself if maybe Christians have gotten themselves into this situation. I wonder if years of shoving our Bibles down peoples throats, saying one thing and doing another, and outright hypocrisy on the part of some of us have put us into a situation where we're more or less on the defensive. They say trust is earned, and maybe some of us have some work to do. Maybe then we won't have to earn our tolerance in court.

Posted By Naomi Schroeper-Couch, Axalp(Brienz), BE, Switzerland : 2:08 PM ET

It is amazing that as soon as someone says "Bible" how defensive some people become.

Evolution is not a fact. However, without question we allow this to be taught in our school system. The class is not being taught as a "belief system" but from a historical viewpoint. It seems that most of you have ignored this.

It would seem that many people who are so opposed to the Bible want it ALL their way!
Whether you like it or not, America does have a history embedded in religious beliefs.

Change the channel. Its what I do quite often.

Posted By Dee M., Springfield, IL : 2:20 PM ET

This bible history class sounds like thinly veiled attempt at missionary work inside of a public school. Even if it was not conceived as such, just one zealot of a teacher can make it so.

Knowledge of religious references in a variety of works of literature and politics is a good idea, but you don't have to read the whole of the KJV of the bible to get the point.

Some bloggers have spoken of Christianity's role in the founding of this country. Any class addressing this should also give equal weight to the study of the political structures of ancient Greece and Rome as well as a historical view of English law to get a comprehensive understanding of the philosophy behind the founding of this country.

Posted By Tiffany, Providence RI : 2:32 PM ET

I find it very interesting that the King James Version of the Bible is the text. The KJV was a major act of rebellion against the Catholic Church, and written in a way that disputed, refuted and rejected many of the beliefs of the Catholic Church and it's adherents. Since many Texans are Catholic (a plurality, if not a majority of those professing a religious belief), it is a slap in the face to those Catholics to have to use the KJV if they attend this class.

In my mind, this is prima facie evidence that the organizations and their supporters promoting these classes are not teaching 'Christianity', but Protestant Christianity, and a very fundamentalist version of it. As such, this type of class should not be in the public elementary and secondary schools.

Posted By M. Inlow, Baltimore, MD : 2:42 PM ET

Our tax dollars already teach young people countless different religions and ideologies - Buddhism, Islam, Marxism, capitalism, feminism, etc. - through public universities. The courses are often led by instructors who are passionately convinced of the truth of their material. At the college level, we understand the importance of learning very different points of view as part of developing your own world view.

Why should high school be any different? Do you have to turn 18 before there's educational value in choosing to listen to other perspectives?

Posted By Michael Neeland, Cedar Rapids, IA : 5:02 PM ET

It is always amazing to me the litigiousness of our society. I guess I should not be surprised when you can sue McDonald's because their coffee is too hot - - and win!

But if I read David's blog correctly, this class is an elective. No one is forcing the students to take the course, so what exactly is the issue?

One of those things that make you go hmmmm......

Posted By Kevin Jacobson : 5:15 PM ET

It is my understanding that this class is not a religious class at all but a study of the LITERATURE of the Bible, and as such, uses the KJV because it is the most often quoted version in other literary pieces. If you know absolutely nothing of this literary masterpiece, then you are handicapped when reading other great works. In a generation where fewer and fewer families are going to church, the cultural significance of the biblical stories is getting lost. To ignore the Bible as a great work of Literature is to stick your head in the sand. This elective should lead to electives on the Koran, Plato's Republic, etc.

Posted By Lisa Durham, Anniston, Alabama : 8:31 PM ET

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
Albert Einstein

"As long as algebra is taught in school, there will be prayer in school."
Cokie Roberts

As far as anyone is concerned, a perception of a particular study differs with the student [whether a 10 yr old autistic or a 65 yr old serving life sentence]

To search for a truth is still the most fundamental, untouched clause by constitutional law, and highly 'edited' in practical living.

Can’t we all get along? I pity the fools.

Posted By Johnny Bravo, India : 12:01 AM ET

The solution is simple. Just teach reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic. Leave all of the ideaology for each individual to learn at home or for themselves.

Some science is OK, I suppose. Just leave out the studies filled with words like 'we're not sure' or 'maybe'...you know, like the "science" of origins. Let folks figure that one out for themselves, too.

If we take away what everyone is complaining about, then we won't have anything to complain about. Since I'm pretty sure that will never happen, I suppose we ought to do something else.

With all the "air-time" the secular humanism religion is getting in our education system, it seems only right to give other voices the same freedom of speech.

BTW, FWIW the Hebrew letter "tav" is not a cross as the scholar on your program suggested. In the ancient K'tav Ivri script(Hebrew script)it was rendered as a 't' or an 'x' and is pronounced as a 'T'. More modern Hebrew is rendered using the K'tav Ashuri (Assyrian Script). With this script, the letter "tav" more resembles a lower case 'n'. The K'tav Ivri script is far more ancient than Christianity, and suggesting that its use is Christian in nature may be a bit more on the opinionated than educated side of the discussion.

Posted By Sean, Gainesville, FL : 11:13 AM ET

A few weeks ago I received an email in which God was being asked why he let the school shootings happen to our innocent children.
It went on to list about 20 in particular including Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc.
The answer was very simple, it said "I am not allowed in schools"..
What a shame. This country has gone so far forward we are now behind. I almost want to give up hoping we can ever be the great nation as we once were.

Posted By Helen Licata, Islip, New York : 3:03 PM ET

Amy, they offered a Bible as Literature class as an elective to seniors in my high school in 1968. It was taught by a born cynic and a great teacher, Barbara Alberts. Guess what? The class was well attended, no religious dogma was preached, and nobody sued! We have certainly lost a lot in the years since: Our tolerance, our sense of humor, and our sense of proportion. Thanks, Miss Alberts!

Posted By Mary, Beaver, PA : 8:01 AM ET

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