Transcripts from video deposition of Sidney Blumenthal
Also read:
(Wednesday, February 3, 1999, Washington, D.C.)
SENATOR SPECTER: If none, I will swear the witness.
Mr. Blumenthal, will you please stand up and raise your
right hand?
You, Sidney Blumenthal, do swear that the evidence you
shall give in this case now pending between the United States
and William Jefferson Clinton, President of the United
States, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you, God?
MR. BLUMENTHAL: I do.
Whereupon, SIDNEY BLUMENTHAL was called as a witness and,
after having been first duly sworn by Senator Specter, was
examined and testified as follows:
SENATOR SPECTER: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
SENATOR SPECTER: The House Managers may begin their
questioning.
MR. ROGAN: Thank you, Senator.
EXAMINATION BY HOUSE MANAGERS
BY MR. ROGAN:
Q. Mr. Blumenthal, first, good morning.
A. Good morning to you.
Q. My name is Jim Rogan. As you know, I am one of the House
Managers and will be conducting this deposition pursuant to
authority from the United States Senate.
First, as a preliminary matter, we have never had the
pleasure of meeting or speaking until this morning, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. If any question I ask is unclear or is in any way
ambiguous, if you would please call that to my attention, I
will be happy to try to restate it or rephrase the question.
A. Thank you.
Q. Mr. Blumenthal, where are you currently employed?
A. At the White House.
Q. Is that in the Executive Office of the President?
A. It is.
Q. What is your current title?
A. My title is Assistant to the President.
Q. Was that your title on January 21st, 1998?
A. It was.
Q. For the record, that is the date that The Washington
Post story appeared that essentially broke the Monica
Lewinsky story?
A. Yes.
Q. On that date, were you the Assistant to the President as
to any specific subject matter?
A. I dealt with a variety of areas.
Q. Did your duties entail any specific matter, or were you
essentially a jack-of-all-trades at the White House for the
President?
A. Well, I was hired to help the President develop his
ideas and themes about the new consensus for the country,
and I was hired to deal with problems like the impact of
globalization, democracy internationally and domestically,
the future of civil society, and the Anglo-American
Project; and I also was hired to work on major speeches.
Q. You testified previously that your duties are such as
the President and Chief of Staff shall decide. Would that be
a fair characterization?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. How long have you been employed in this capacity?
A. Since August 11th, 1997.
Q. And in the course of your duties, do you personally
advise the President as to the matters that you just shared
with us?
A. Yes.
Q. How often do you meet with the President personally to
advise him?
A. It varies. Sometimes several times a week; sometimes I
go without seeing him for a number of weeks at a time.
Q. Is dealing with the media part of your--your job?
A. Yes. It's part of my job and part of the job of most
people in the White House.
Q. Was that also one of your responsibilities on January
21st, 1998, when the Monica Lewinsky story broke?
A. Yes.
Q. You previously testified that you had a role in the
Monica Lewinsky matter after the story broke in The
Washington Post on that date, at least in reference to your
White House duties; is that correct?
A. I'm unclear on what you mean by ``a role.''
Q. Specifically, you testified that you attended meetings
in the White House in the Office of Legal Counsel in the
morning and in the evening almost every day once the story
broke?
A. Yes.
Q. And what times did those meetings occur after the story
broke, these regular meetings?
A. The morning meetings occurred around 8:30, after the
morning message meeting, and the evening meetings occurred
around 6:45.
Q. Are those meetings still ongoing?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell me when those meetings ended?
A. Oh, I'd say about the time that the impeachment trial
started.
Q. That would be about a month or--about a month ago?
A. Yeah, something like that.
Q. Thank you.
A. I don't recall exactly.
Q. Sure. But up until that point, were these essentially
regularly scheduled meetings, twice a day, 8:30 in the
morning and 6:45 in the evening?
A. Right.
Q. Did you generally attend those meetings?
A. Generally.
Q. Now, initially, when you testified before the grand jury
on February 26th, 1998, your first grand jury appearance, you
stated that these twice-daily meetings dealt exclusively with
the Monica Lewinsky matter, correct?
A. They dealt with our press reaction, how we would respond
to press reports dealing with it. This was a huge story, and
we were being inundated with hundreds of calls.
Q. Right.
A. So--
Q. What I'm--what I'm trying to decipher is that at least
initially, at the time of your first grand jury appearance,
which was about a month after the story broke--
A. Right.
Q. --the meetings were exclusively related to Monica
Lewinsky. Is that correct?
A. Pretty much.
Q. And then, 4 months later, when you testified before the
grand jury in June, you said these meetings were still
ongoing, and you referenced them at that time as discussing
the policy, political, legal and media impact of scandals and
how to deal with them. Do you remember that testimony?
A. If I could see it.
Q. Certainly. I'm happy to invite your attention to your
grand jury testimony of June 4th, 1998, page 25, lines 1
through 5.
MR. ROGAN: And that would be, for the Senators' and
counsel's benefit--I believe that's in Tab 4 of the materials
provided.
[Witness perusing document.]
THE WITNESS: Right. I see it.
BY MR. ROGAN:
Q. You've had a chance to review that, Mr. Blumenthal?
A. I have.
Q. And that--that's correct testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
At the time you spoke of--you used the word ``scandals'' in
the plural, and you were asked on June 4th what other
scandals were discussed and you said they range from the
Paula Jones trial to our China policy. Is that a fair
statement?
A. Oh, yes, yes. I do.
Q. Who typically attended those meetings?
A. As I recall, there were about a dozen or so people,
sometimes more, sometimes less.
Q. Do you remember the names of the people?
A. I'll try to.
Q. Would it be helpful if I directed your attention to a
couple of passages in the grand jury testimony?
A. Sure, if you'd like.
MR. ROGAN: Inviting the Senate and counsel's attention to
the February 26th grand jury testimony, page 11, lines 2
through 16.
[Witness perusing document.]
THE WITNESS: Sure. Yeah.
BY MR. ROGAN:
Q. That would be Tab Number 1.
A. Right, I see that.
What it says here is that the names listed are Charles
Ruff, Lanny Breuer, who is right over here, Cheryl Mills,
Bruce Lindsey, John Podesta, Rahm Emanuel, Paul Begala, Jim
Kennedy, Mike McCurry, Joe Lockhart, Ann Lewis, Adam
Goldberg, Don Goldberg, and that's--those are the names that
I--that I recall.
Q. Thank you.
And just for my benefit, Mr. Ruff, Mr. Breuer, Ms. Mills,
and Mr. Lindsey, those are all White House counsel?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you just briefly identify for the record the other
individuals that are--that are listed in your testimony?
A. Sure. John Podesta was Deputy Chief of Staff. Rahm
Emanuel was a Senior Advisor. Paul Begala had the title of
Counselor. Jim Kennedy was in the Legal Counsel Office. Mike
McCurry was Press Secretary. Joe Lockhart at that time was
Deputy Press Secretary. Ann Lewis was Director of
Communications, still is. Adam Goldberg worked as a--as an
Assistant in the Legal Counsel Office, and Don Goldberg
worked in Legislative Affairs.
Q. Thank you.
Mr. Blumenthal, specifically inviting your attention to
January 21st, 1998, you testified before the grand jury that
on that date, you personally spoke to the President regarding
the Monica Lewinsky matter, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When you spoke to the President, did you discuss The
Washington Post story about Ms. Lewinsky that appeared that
morning?
[[Page S1247]]
A. I don't recall if we talked about that article
specifically.
Q. Do you recall on June 25th testifying before the grand
jury, and I'm quoting, ``We were speaking about the story
that appeared that morning''?
A. Right. We were--we were speaking about that story, but I
don't know if we referred to The Post.
Q. Thank you.
You are familiar with The Washington Post story that broke
that day?
A. I am.
Q. That story essentially stated that the Office of
Independent Counsel was investigating whether the President
made false statements about his relationship with Ms.
Lewinsky in the Jones case, correct, to the best of your
recollection?
A. If you could repeat that?
Q. Sure. The story stated that the Office of Independent
Counsel was investigating whether the President made false
statements about his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky in the
Jones case.
A. Right.
Q. And also that the Office of Independent Counsel was
investigating whether the President obstructed justice in the
Jones case. Is that your best recollection of what that
story was about?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you end up speaking to the President on that
specific date?
A. I don't remember exactly whether he had summoned me or
whether I had asked to speak him--to him.
Q. And I realize, by the way, I--just so you know, I'm not
trying to trick you or anything. I realize this is a year
later--
A. Right.
Q. --and your testimony was many months ago, and so if I
invite your attention to previous grand jury testimony to
refresh your recollection, I don't want you to feel that in
any way I'm trying to imply that you're not being candid in
your testimony.
With that, if I may invite your--your attention to the June
4th grand jury testimony on page 47, lines 5 through 6.
[Witness perusing document.]
BY MR. ROGAN:
Q. Let me see if this helps to refresh your recollection.
You said, ``It was about a week before the State of the Union
speech.''
A. I see.
Q. ``I was in my office, and the President asked me to come
to his office.''
Does that help to refresh your recollection?
A. Yes.
Q. And so you now remember that the President asked to
speak with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to the Oval Office?
A. Yes.
Q. During that conversation, were you alone with the
President?
A. I was.
Q. Do you remember if the door was closed?
A. It was.
Q. When you met with the President, did you relate to him a
conversation you had with the First Lady earlier that day?
A. I did.
Q. What did you tell the President the First Lady told you
earlier that day?
A. I believe that I told him that the First Lady had called
me earlier in the day, and in the light of the story in The
Post had told me that the President had helped troubled
people in the past and that he had done it many times and
that he was a compassionate person and that he helped people
also out of his religious conviction and that this was part
of--part of his nature.
Q. And did she also tell you that one of the other reasons
he helped people was out of his personal temperament?
A. Yes. That's what I mean by that.
Q. And the First Lady also at least shared with you her
opinion that he was being attacked for political motives?
MR. McDANIEL: Can I get a clarification, Senator--Senator
Specter? The earlier question, I thought, had been what Mr.
Blumenthal had relayed to the President had been said by the
First Lady.
MR. ROGAN: That's correct.
MR. McDANIEL: And now the questions are back--it seems to
me have moved to another topic--
MR. ROGAN: No. That's--
MR. McDANIEL: --which is what--
MR. ROGAN: I'm--
MR. McDANIEL: --did the First Lady say.
MR. ROGAN: And I thank--I thank the gentleman for that
clarification. I'm specifically asking what the witness
relayed to the President respecting his conversation with--
his earlier conversation with the First Lady.
MR. McDANIEL: Thank you.
Do you understand that, what he said?
THE WITNESS: I understand the distinction, and I don't--
BY MR. ROGAN:
Q. I'll restate the question, if that would help.
A. Please.
Q. Do you remember telling the President that the First
Lady said to you that she felt that with--in reference to
this story that he was being attacked for political motives?
A. I remember her saying that to me, yes.
Q. And you relayed that to the President?
A. I'm not sure I relayed that to the President. I may have
just relayed the gist of the conversation to him. I don't--
I'm not sure whether I relayed the entire conversation.
MR. ROGAN: Inviting the Senators' and counsel's attention
to the June 4th, 1998, testimony of Mr. Blumenthal, page 47,
beginning at line 5.
BY MR. ROGAN:
Q. Mr. Blumenthal, let me just read a passage to you and
tell me if this helps to refresh your memory.
A. Mm-hmm.
MR. ROGAN: Do you have that, Lanny?
MR. BREUER: Yes, I do. Thank you.
BY MR. ROGAN:
Q. Reading at line--at line 5, ``I was in my office, and
the President asked me to come to the Oval Office. I was
seeing him frequently in this period about the State of the
Union and Blair's visit''--and I--that was Prime Minister
Tony Blair, as an aside, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Thank you.
And then again, reading at line 7, ``So I went up to the
Oval Office and I began the discussion, and I said that I had
received--that I had spoken to the First Lady that day in the
afternoon about the story that had broke in the morning, and
I related to the President my conversation with the First
Lady and the conversation went as follows. The First Lady
said that she was distressed that the President was being
attacked, in her view, for political motives for his
ministry of a troubled person. She said that the President
ministers to troubled people all the time,'' and then it
goes on to--
A. Right.
Q. --relate the substance of the answer you just gave.
Does that help to refresh your recollection with respect to
what you told the President, the First Lady had said earlier?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
And do you now remember that the First Lady had indicated
to you that she felt the President was being attacked for
political motives?
A. Well, I remember she said that to me.
Q. And just getting us back on track, a few moments ago, I
think you--you shared with us that the First Lady said that
the President helped troubled people and he had done it many
times in the past.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember testifying before the grand jury on that
subject, saying that the First Lady said he has done this
dozens, if not hundreds, of times with people--
A. Yes.
Q. --with troubled people?
A. I recall that.
Q. After you related the conversation that you had with the
First Lady to the President, what do you remember saying to
the President next about the subject of Monica Lewinsky?
A. Well, I recall telling him that I understood he felt
that way, and that he did help people, but that he should
stop trying to help troubled people personally; that troubled
people are troubled and that they can get you in a lot of
messes and that you had to cut yourself off from it and you
just had to do it. That's what I recall saying to him.
Q. Do you also remember in that conversation saying to him,
``You really need to not do that at this point, that you
can't get near anybody who is even remotely crazy. You're
President''?
A. Yes. I think that was a little later in the
conversation, but I do recall saying that.
Q. When you told the President that he should avoid contact
with troubled people, what did the President say to you in
response?
A. I'm trying to remember the sequence of it. He--he said
that was very difficult for him. He said he--he felt a need
to help troubled people, and it was hard for him to--to cut
himself off from doing that.
Q. Do you remember him saying specifically, ``It's very
difficult for me to do that, given how I am. I want to help
people''?
A. I recall--I recall that.
Q. And when the President referred to trying to
help people, did you understand him in that conversation
to be referring to Monica Lewinsky?
A. I think it included Monica Lewinsky, but also many
others.
Q. Right, but it was your understanding that he was all--he
was specifically referring to Monica Lewinsky in that list of
people that he tried to help?
A. I believe that--that was implied.
Q. Do you remember being asked that question before the
grand jury and giving the answer, ``I understood that''?
A. If you could point it out to me, I'd be happy to see it.
Q. Certainly.
MR. ROGAN: Inviting the Senators' and counsel's attention
to the June 25th, 1998, grand jury, page 5, I believe it's at
lines 6 through 8.
[Witness perusing document.]
THE WITNESS: Yes, I see that. Thank you.
By MR. ROGAN:
Q. You recall that now?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
Mr. Blumenthal, did the President then relate a
conversation he had with Dick Morris to you?
A. He did.
Q. What was the substance of that conversation, as the
President related it to you?
A. He said that he had spoken to Dick Morris earlier that
day, and that Dick Morris had told him that if Nixon, Richard
Nixon, had given a nationally televised speech at the
beginning of the Watergate affair, acknowledging everything
he had done wrong, he may well have survived it, and that was
the conversation that Dick Morris--that's what Dick Morris
said to the President.
[[Page S1248]]
Q. Did it sound to you like the President was suggesting
perhaps he would go on television and give a national speech?
A. Well, I don't know. I didn't know.
Q. And when the President related the substance of his
conversation with Dick Morris to you, how did you respond to
that?
A. I said to the President, ``Well, what have you done
wrong?''
Q. Did he reply?
A. He did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, ``I haven't done anything wrong.''
Q. And what did you say to that response?
A. Well, I said, as I recall, ``That's one of the stupidest
ideas I ever heard. If you haven't done anything wrong, why
would you do that?''
Q. Did the President then give you his account of what
happened between him and Monica Lewinsky?
A. As I recall, he did.
Q. What did the President tell you?
A. He, uh--he spoke, uh, fairly rapidly, as I recall, at
that point and said that she had come on to him and made a
demand for sex, that he had rebuffed her, turned her down,
and that she, uh, threatened him. And, uh, he said that
she said to him, uh, that she was called ``the stalker''
by her peers and that she hated the term, and that she
would claim that they had had an affair whether they had
or they hadn't, and that she would tell people.
Q. Do you remember him also saying that the reason Monica
Lewinsky would tell people that is because then she wouldn't
be known by her peers as ``the stalker'' anymore?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. Do you remember the President also saying that--and I'm
quoting--``I've gone down that road before. I've caused pain
for a lot of people. I'm not going to do that again''?
A. Yes. He told me that.
Q. And that was in the same conversation that you had with
the President?
A. Right, in--in that sequence.
Q. Can you describe for us the President's demeanor when he
shared this information with you?
A. Yes. He was, uh, very upset. I thought he was, a man in
anguish.
Q. And at that point, did you repeat your earlier
admonition to him as far as not trying to help troubled
people?
A. I did. I--I think that's when I told him that you can't
get near crazy people, uh, or troubled people. Uh, you're
President; you just have to separate yourself from this.
Q. And I'm not sure, based on your testimony, if you gave
that admonition to him once or twice. Let me--let me clarify
for you why my questioning suggested it was twice. In your
grand jury testimony on June the 4th, at page 49, beginning
at line 25, you began the sentence by saying, and I quote,
``And I repeated to the President''--
A. Right.
Q. --``that he really needed never to be near people who
were''--
A. Right.
Q. --``troubled like this,'' and so forth. Do you remember
now if you--if that was correct? Did you find yourself in
that conversation having to repeat the admonition to him that
you'd given earlier?
A. I'm sure I did. Uh, I felt--I felt that pretty strongly.
He shouldn't be involved with troubled people.
Q. Do you remember the President also saying something
about being like a character in a novel?
A. I do.
Q. What did he say?
A. Uh, he said to me, uh, that, uh, he felt like a
character in a novel. Uh, he felt like somebody, uh,
surrounded by, uh, an oppressive environment that was
creating a lie about him. He said he felt like, uh, the
character in the novel Darkness at Noon.
Q. Did he also say he felt like he can't get the truth out?
A. Yes, I--I believe he said that.
Q. Politicians are always loathe to confess their
ignorance, particularly on videotape. I will do so. I'm
unfamiliar with the novel Darkness at Noon. Did you--do you
have any familiarity with that, or did you understand what
the President meant by that?
A. I--I understood what he meant. I--I was familiar with
the book.
Q. What--what did he mean by that, per your understanding?
A. Uh, the book is by Arthur Koestler, who was somebody who
had been a communist and had become disillusioned with
communism. And it's an anti-communist novel. It's about, uh,
uh, the Stalinist purge trials and somebody who was a loyal
communist who then is put in one of Stalin's prisons and held
on trial and executed, uh, and it's about his trial.
Q. Did you understand what the President was trying to
communicate when he related his situation to the character in
that novel?
A. I think he felt that the world was against him.
Q. I thought only Members of Congress felt that way.
Mr. Blumenthal, did you ever ask the President if he was
ever alone with Monica Lewinsky?
A. I did.
Q. What was his response?
A. I asked him a number of questions that appeared in the
press that day. I asked him, uh, if he were alone, and he
said that, uh, he was within eyesight or earshot of someone
when he was with her.
Q. What other questions do you remember asking him?
A. Uh, there was a story in the paper that, uh, there were
recorded messages, uh, left by him on her voice-mail and I
asked him if that were true.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, uh, that it was, that, uh, he had called her.
Q. You had asked him about a press account that said there
were potentially a number of telephone messages left by the
President for Monica Lewinsky. And he relayed to you that he
called her. Did he tell you how many times he called her?
A. He--he did. He said he called once. He said he called
when, uh, Betty Currie's brother had died, to tell her that.
Q. And other than that one time that he shared that
information with you, he shared no other information
respecting additional calls?
A. No.
Q. He never indicated to you that there were over 50
telephone conversations between himself and Monica Lewinsky?
A. No.
Q. Based on your conversation with the President at that
time, would it have surprised you to know that there were
over 50--there were records of over 50 telephone
conversations with Monica Lewinsky and the President?
A. Would I have been surprised at that time?
Q. Yes.
A. Uh, I--to see those records and if he--I don't fully
grasp the question here. Could you--would I have been
surprised?
Q. Based on the President's response to your question at
that time, would it have surprised you to have been told or
to have later learned that there were over 50 recorded--50
conversations between the President and Ms. Lewinsky?
A. I did later learn that, uh, as the whole country did,
uh, and I was surprised.
Q. When the President told you that Monica Lewinsky
threatened him, did you ever feel compelled to report that
information to the Secret Service?
A. No.
Q. The FBI or any other law enforcement organization?
A. No.
Q. I'm assuming that a threat to the President from
somebody in the White House would normally send off alarm
bells among staff.
A. It wouldn't--
MR. McDANIEL: Well, I'd like to object to the question,
Senator. There's no testimony that Mr. Blumenthal learned of
a threat contemporaneously with it being made by someone in
the White House. This is a threat that was relayed to him
sometime afterwards by someone who was no longer employed in
the White House. So I think the question doesn't relate to
the testimony of this witness.
MR. ROGAN: Respectfully, I'm not sure what the legal basis
of the objection is. The evidence before us is that the
President told the witness that Monica Lewinsky threatened
him.
[Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.]
SENATOR SPECTER: We've conferred and overrule the objection
on the ground that it calls for an answer; that, however the
witness chooses to answer it, was not a contemporaneous
threat, or he thought it was stale, or whatever he thinks.
But the objection is overruled.
MR. ROGAN: Thank you.
BY MR. ROGAN:
Q. Let me--let me restate the question, if I may. Mr.
Blumenthal, would a threat--
SENATOR SPECTER: We withdraw the ruling.
[Laughter.]
MR. McDANIEL: I withdraw my objection, then.
[Laughter.]
MR. ROGAN: Senator Specter, the ruling is just fine by my
light. I'm just going to try to simplify the question for the
witness' benefit.
SENATOR SPECTER: We'll hold in abeyance a decision on
whether to reinstate the ruling.
MR. ROGAN: Thank you. Maybe I should just quit while I'm
ahead and have the question read back.
BY MR. ROGAN:
Q. Basically, Mr. Blumenthal, what I'm asking is, I mean,
normally, would a threat from somebody against the President
in the White House typically require some sort of report
being made to a law enforcement agency?
A. Uh, in the abstract, yes.
Q. This conversation that you had with the President on
January the 21st, 1998, how did that conversation conclude?
A. Uh, I believe we, uh--well, I believe after that, I said
to the President that, uh--who was--seemed to me to be upset,
that you needed to find some sure footing and to be
confident. And, uh, we went on, I believe, to discuss the
State of the Union.
Q. You went on to other business?
A. Yes, we went on to talk about public policy.
Q. When this conversation with the President concluded as
it related to Monica Lewinsky, what were your feelings toward
the President's statement?
A. Uh, well, they were complex. Uh, I believed him, uh, but
I was also, uh--I thought he was very upset. That troubled
me. And I also was troubled by his association with troubled
people and thought this was not a good story and thought he
shouldn't be doing this.
[[Page S1249]]
Q. Do you remember also testifying before the grand jury
that you felt that the President's story was a very heartfelt
story and that ``he was pouring out his heart, and I believed
him''?
A. Yes, that's what I told the grand jury, I believe;
right.
Q. That was--that was how you interpreted the President's
story?
A. Yes, I did. He was, uh--he seemed--he seemed emotional.
Q. When the President told you he was helping Monica
Lewinsky, did he ever describe to you how he might be helping
or ministering to her?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever describe how many times he may have tried to
help or minister to her?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you how many times he visited with Monica
Lewinsky?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you how many times Monica Lewinsky visited
him in the Oval Office complex?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you how many times he was alone with Monica
Lewinsky?
A. No.
Q. He never described to you any intimate physical activity
he may have had with Monica Lewinsky?
A. Oh, no.
Q. Did the President ever tell you that he gave any gifts
to Monica Lewinsky?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you that Monica Lewinsky gave him any gifts?
A. No.
Q. Based on the President's story as he related on January
21st, would it have surprised you to know at that time that
there was a repeated gift exchange between Monica Lewinsky
and the President?
A. Well, I learned later about that, and I was surprised.
Q. The President never told you that he engaged in
occasional sexual banter with her on the telephone?
A. No.
Q. He never told you about any cover stories that he and
Monica Lewinsky may have developed to disguise a
relationship?
A. No.
Q. He never suggested to you that there might be some
physical evidence pointing to a physical relationship between
he--between himself and Monica Lewinsky?
A. No.
Q. Did the President ever discuss his grand jury--or strike
that.
Did the President ever discuss his deposition testimony
with you in the Paula Jones case on that date?
A. Oh, no.
Q. Did he ever tell you that he denied under oath in his
Paula Jones deposition that he had an affair with Monica
Lewinsky?
A. No.
Q. Did the President ever tell you that he ministered to
anyone else who then made a sexual advance toward him?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Blumenthal, after you testified before the grand
jury, did you ever communicate to the President the questions
that you were asked?
A. No.
Q. After you testified before the grand jury, did you ever
communicate to the President the answers which you gave to
those questions?
A. No.
Q. After you were subpoenaed to testify but before you
testified before the Federal grand jury, did the President
ever recant his earlier statements to you about Monica
Lewinsky?
A. No.
Q. After you were subpoenaed but before you testified
before the federal grand jury, did the President ever say
that he did not want you to mislead the grand jury with a
false statement?
A. No. We didn't have any subsequent conversation about
this matter.
Q. So it would be fair also to say that after you were
subpoenaed but before you testified before the Federal grand
jury, the President never told you that he was not being
truthful with you in that January 21st conversation about
Monica Lewinsky?
A. Uh, he never spoke to me about that at all.
Q. The President never instructed you before your testimony
before the grand jury not to relay his false account of his
relationship with Monica Lewinsky?
A. We--we didn't speak about anything.
Q. And as to your testimony on all three appearances before
the grand jury on February 26th, June 4th and June 25th,
1998--as an aside, by the way, let me just say I think this
question has been asked of all the witnesses, so this is
not peculiar to you--but as to those three grand jury
appearances, do you adopt as truth your testimony on all
three of those occasions?
A. Oh, yes.
MR. ROGAN: If I may have a moment?
SENATOR SPECTER: Of course. Would you like a short break?
MR. ROGAN: That might be convenient, Senator.
SENATOR SPECTER: All right. It's a little past 10. We'll
take a 5-minute recess.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record at 10 o'clock
a.m.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going back on the record at 10:12
a.m.
SENATOR SPECTER: We shall proceed; Mr. Graham questioning
for the House Managers.
MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Senator.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Again, Mr. Blumenthal, if I ask you something that's
confusing, just slow me down and straighten me out here.
A. Thank you.
Q. Okay. I'm going to ask as direct, to-the-point questions
as I can so we all can go home.
June 4th, 1998, when you testified to the grand jury, on
page 49--I guess it's page 185 on tab 4.
MR. McDANIEL: Page 49?
MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir.
MR. McDANIEL: Thank you.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. That's where you start talking about the story that the
President told you. Knowing what you know now, do you believe
the President lied to you about his relationship with Ms.
Lewinsky?
A. I do.
Q. I appreciate your honesty. You had raised executive
privilege at some time in the past, I believe.
MR. McDANIEL: I object, Senator. Mr. Blumenthal was a
passive vessel for the raising of executive privilege by the
President. It's not his privilege to assert, so the question,
I think, is misleading.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. At any time--I'm sorry.
[Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.]
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards and I have conferred and
believe that he can answer the question if he did not raise
the privilege, so we will overrule the objection.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Either he asserted it or it was asserted
on his behalf.
THE WITNESS: If you could repeat it, please.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. I believe early on in your testimony and throughout your
testimony to the grand jury, the idea of executive privilege
covering your testimony or conversations with the President
was raised. Is that correct?
A. It was.
Q. Do you believe the White House knew that this privilege
would be asserted in your testimony? That was no surprise to
them?
A. Uh--
MR. BREUER: I'm going to object. It's the White House's
privilege to assert it could not have been surprised. It's a
mischaracterization of the facts.
[Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.]
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards and I believe the
objection is well-founded on the ground that he cannot
testify as to what someone else knew. So would you rephrase
the question? The objection will be sustained.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. When executive privilege was asserted, do you know how
it came about? Do you have any knowledge of how it came
about?
A. What I recall is that I--in my first appearance before
the grand jury, I was asked questions about my conversations
with the President. And I went out into the hall, asked if I
could go out in the hall, and I spoke with the White House
legal counsel who was there, Cheryl Mills, and said, ``What
do I say?''
Q. And she said?
A. And I was advised to assert privilege.
Q. So the executive privilege assertion came about from
advice to you by White House counsel?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you've stated, I think, very honestly, and I
appreciate, that you were lied to by the President. Is it a
fair statement, given your previous testimony concerning your
30-minute conversation, that the President was trying to
portray himself as a victim of a relationship with Monica
Lewinsky?
A. I think that's the import of his whole story.
Q. During this period of time, the Paula Jones lawsuit,
other allegations about relationships with the President and
other women were being made and found their way in the press.
Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you have these morning meetings and evening
meetings about press strategy, I believe your previous
testimony goes along the lines that any time a press report
came out about a story between the President and a woman,
that you would sit down and strategize about what to do. Is
that correct?
A. Well, we would, uh, talk about what the White House
spokesman would say about it.
Q. Does the name ``Kathleen Willey'' mean anything to you
in that regard?
MR. BREUER: I'm going to object. It's beyond the scope of
this deposition. In the proffer from the Managers, they
explicitly state the areas that they want to go into, and
they explicitly state that they want to speak to Mr.
Blumenthal about his January 21, 1998, conversation with the
President about Monica Lewinsky. And any aspects as
to Kathleen Willey are--have nothing to do with the
Articles of Impeachment, nor do they have anything to do
with the proffer made by the Managers, and it's beyond the
scope of this deposition.
SENATOR SPECTER: Just wait one second.
[Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.]
SENATOR SPECTER: Mr. Graham, as you know, the scope of the
examination of Mr. Blumenthal is limited by the subject
matters reflected in the Senate record. Are you able to
substantiate the Senate record as a basis for asking the
question?
[[Page S1250]]
MR. GRAHAM: I'm assuming, yes, Senator, that the grand jury
testimony of Mr. Blumenthal is part of the Senate record. And
on June 25th, 1998, on page 21, there's a discussion between
Mr. Blumenthal and the Independent Counsel's Office about
strategy meetings and other women, and in that testimony, he
mentions that ``we discussed Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey, in
our strategy meeting.''
And I think the question will not be as ominous as some may
think it sounds. I think I can get right to the point pretty
quickly about what I'm trying to do with--
SENATOR SPECTER: Well, would you make an offer of proof so
that we can see what the scope is that you have in mind?
MR. GRAHAM: Basically, his testimony is that when a press
report came about concerning Ms. Jones or Kathleen Willey or
a relationship between the President and another woman, they
sat down and strategized about how to respond to those press
accounts, what to do and what to say--at least that's what
his testimony indicates. And I just want to ask him, once the
January 21st story about Ms. Lewinsky came out, how they
discussed her in relationship to other strategy meetings.
SENATOR SPECTER: Mr. Breuer, how would you respond to
Congressman Graham's statement that as he refers to a
reference to Ms. Willey in the record?
MR. BREUER: Senator, I haven't seen the one reference, but
I may--I would acknowledge that there may be one passing
reference to Ms. Willey in the voluminous materials that are
before us here in the grand jury, Senator. But it's clearly
not germane to this deposition. It's clearly not germane to
the proffer made by the Managers about why Mr. Sidney
Blumenthal was a witness. It is clearly not germane to the
Articles of Impeachment.
And, indeed, in Mr. Lindsey Graham's proffer just now, he
said that he wants to go back and ask about the January 21
conversation. It's my view that Kathleen Willey is
tangential, at best, and is not germane to this deposition
and ought not to be inquired into.
SENATOR EDWARDS: And, Senator Specter, I would ask that we
go off the record for this discussion, given the question of
whether this is within the scope of the Senate record.
SENATOR SPECTER: We shall go off the record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record at 10:20 a.m.
[Discussion off the record.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going back on the record at 10:48
a.m.
SENATOR SPECTER: Congressman Lindsey, you may proceed.
MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, sir.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Thank you for your patience, Mr. Blumenthal. I
appreciate it.
A. Thank you.
Q. Let's get back to the--we'll approach this topic another
way and we'll try to tie it up at the end here.
The January 21st article breaks, and I think it's in The
Washington Post, is that correct, the January 21st article
about Ms. Lewinsky being on tape, talking about her
relationship with the President? Are you familiar with that
article?
A. I'm familiar with an article on January 21st in The
Washington Post.
Q. And what--what was the essence of that article, as you
remember it?
A. If you have it there, I'd be happy to look at it.
Q. Yeah. Let's see if we can find it, what tab that is. Tab
7.
[Witness perusing document.]
THE WITNESS: Well--
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. If you'd like a chance to read it over, just take your
time.
A. Yes. Thank you.
[Witness perusing document.]
THE WITNESS: It's a long article.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Yes, sir, it is, and just--
A. Yeah.
Q. --just take your time. I'm not going to give you a test
on the article. I just wanted--
A. No. I just wanted to read it.
Q. --to refresh your memory. Absolutely, you take your
time.
A. I hope you don't mind if I took the time here.
Q. No, sir. Are you--you're okay now?
A. I am.
Q. Okay. In essence, what this article is--is alleging is
what we now know, the allegations that Ms. Lewinsky had a
relationship with the President, that Mr. Jordan was trying
to help her secure counsel, to file an affidavit saying they
had no relationship, and the relationship on January 21st was
being exposed through some tape recordings, supposedly, the
Independent Counsel had access to between Ms. Lewinsky and
Ms. Tripp. Is that correct?
A. Well, there are a lot of questions in there.
Q. Okay, yeah, and I'm sorry.
This article seems to suggest that Ms. Lewinsky is telling
a friend--
A. Mm-hmm.
Q. --that she has a relationship with the President, a
sexual relationship with the President.
A. Mm-hmm.
Q. You understand that from the article?
A. Yes.
Q. This article also alleges that an affidavit was filed by
Ms. Lewinsky denying that relationship, and Mr. Jordan sought
an attorney for her, a friend of the President. Is that
correct?
A. It says she filed an affidavit, and I'm just looking for
where it says that Jordan had secured the attorney.
Q. The very first paragraph, let me read it. ``The
Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr has expanded his
investigation of President Clinton to examine whether Clinton
and his close friend, Vernon Jordan, encouraged a 24-year-
old''--
A. Right.
Q. --''former White House intern to lie to lawyers for
Paula Jones about whether the intern had an affair with the
President, sources close to the investigation said
yesterday.''
A. Right.
Q. So I guess that first paragraph kind of sums up the
accusation.
A. I think--
Q. What type reaction did the White House have when this--
as you recall--when this article came to light?
A. I--I think the White House was overwhelmed with press
inquiries.
Q. Was there a sense of alarm that this was a bad story?
A. Yes.
Q. And wasn't there a sense of reassurance by the President
himself that this was an untrue story?
A. The President did make a public statement that
afternoon.
Q. And I believe White House officials on his behalf denied
the essence of this story; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And basically, you were passing along what somebody you
trust and admire told you to be the case, and from the White
House point of view, that was the response to this story,
that we deny these allegations.
MR. McDANIEL: Senator, I really object to the question
where we mix ``you'' and ``we'' and the ``White House.'' I'd
like, if possible, for the question--if they want to know
what Mr. Blumenthal did, to ask him what he did, and
questions about what the White House did and what we and you
did.
MR. GRAHAM: That's fair enough.
MR. McDANIEL: Okay, we thank you.
SENATOR SPECTER: We think that's well-founded.
MR. GRAHAM: Yes, and I agree. I agree that is well-founded.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Did you have any discussions with White House press
people about the nature of this relationship after this
article broke?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any discussions with White House lawyers
after this article broke about the nature of the
relationship?
A. No.
Q. After you had the conversation with the President,
sometime the week of the 21st--I believe that's your
testimony--shortly after the news story broke, this 30-minute
conversation where he tells you about--
A. There's not a question.
Q. Okay. Is that correct? When did you have this
conversation with the President? Do you recall?
A. Yes. It was in the early evening of January 21st.
Q. Early evening of January 21st?
A. Yes.
Q. The same day the story was reported?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So, from your point of view, this was something
that needed to be addressed?
MR. McDANIEL: Your Honor, I--Senator, I object to the
question about ``this'' is something that needs to be
addressed. I don't understand what the ``this'' is, exactly,
that the question refers to. Does it refer to the story? Does
it refer to the President's statement to Mr. Blumenthal?
SENATOR SPECTER: Well, we think--Senator Edwards and I
concur that the witness can answer the question. If he does
not understand it, he can say so and then can have the
question rephrased.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. You have a conversation with the President on the same
day the article comes out, and the conversation includes a
discussion about the relationship between him and Ms.
Lewinsky. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So it was certainly on people's minds, including
the President, is that correct, the essence of this story?
MR. McDANIEL: I object to the question about whether it's
on people's minds. I think he can answer about what he knew
or about what he learned from people who spoke to him, but
the question goes far beyond that.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Well, let me ask you this. We know it was on the
President's mind.
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards and I think that,
technically, that's correct, and perhaps you can avoid it by
just pinpointing it just a little more.
MR. GRAHAM: Yes. We'll try to be laser-like in these
questions.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. You had a conversation with the President of the United
States about his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky on the same
day The Washington Post article came out. That's correct? Yes
or no?
A. That--I--I--that's right.
Q. Okay. During that period of time, that day or any day
thereafter, were you involved in any meeting with White House
lawyers or press people where the conversation--or where the
topic of Ms. Lewinsky's allegations or the--Ken Starr's
allegations about Ms. Lewinsky came up?
[[Page S1251]]
A. I'm confused about which allegations you're talking
about.
Q. That she had a relationship with the President, and they
were trying to get her to file a false affidavit. Did that
topic ever come up in your presence with the Press Secretary,
White House press people or lawyers for the White House?
A. I think the whole story was discussed by senior staff in
the White House.
Q. When did that begin to occur?
A. I'm sure we were discussing it on January 21st.
Q. Do you recall that every--
A. Every--everyone in the country was talking about it.
Q. Well, do you recall the tenor of that conversation? Do
you recall the flavor of it? Can you describe it the best you
can, about--was there a sense of alarm, shock? How would you
describe it?
A. I think we felt overwhelmed by the crisis atmosphere.
Q. Did anybody ever suggest who is Monica Lewinsky, go find
out about who she is and what she does?
A. No.
Q. So is it your testimony that this accusation comes out
on January 21st, and the accusation being that a White House
intern has an inappropriate relationship with the President,
filed a false affidavit on his behalf, and nobody at this
meeting suggested let's find out who Monica Lewinsky is and
what's going on here?
A. Well, I wasn't referring to any meeting, but in any of
my discussions with members of the White House staff, nobody
discussed Monica Lewinsky's personal life or decided that we
had to find out who she was.
Q. Could I turn you now to Tab 15, please? Okay.
MR. McDANIEL: Would you like him to read this?
MR. GRAHAM: Yes. Yes, please. Just take your time. And I am
now referring to an AP story by Karen G-u-l-l-o. I don't want
to mispronounce her name.
[Witness perusing document.]
THE WITNESS: I'm ready, Congressman.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Thank you.
And this article--do you know this reporter, by any chance?
A. I do know this reporter, but I did not know this
reporter on January 30th.
Q. All right. Do you subsequently know--
A. Some months later, I met this reporter.
Q. And the basic essence of my question, Mr. Blumenthal,
will be this report indicates some derogatory information
about Ms. Lewinsky, and it also has some statements by White
House Press Secretary and Ms. Lewis. And I want to ask how
those two statements go together.
This report indicates that a White House aide called this
reporter to suggest that Ms. Lewinsky's past included weight
problems, and she was called ``The Stalker.'' And it says
that ``Junior staff members, speaking on condition that they
not be identified, said she was known as a flirt, wore her
skirts too short, was `` `a little bit weird'.'' And the next
paragraph says: ``Little by little, ever since the
allegations of an affair between President Clinton and Ms.
Lewinsky surfaced 10 days ago, White House sources have waged
a behind-the-scenes campaign to portray her as an
untrustworthy climber obsessed with the President.''
Do you have any direct knowledge or indirect knowledge that
such a campaign by White House aides or junior staff members
ever existed?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Do you ever remember hearing Ms. Lewis or Mr.
McCurry admonishing anyone in the White House about ``watch
what you say about Ms. Lewinsky''?
A. No. I don't recall those incidents described in this
article, but I do note that among senior advisors at one of
the meetings that we held--it could have been in the morning
or late afternoon--we felt very firmly that nobody should
ever be a source to a reporter about a story about Monica
Lewinsky's personal life, and I strongly agreed with that and
that's what we decided.
Q. When did that meeting occur?
A. I'd say within a week of the story breaking.
Q. Who was at that meeting?
A. I don't recall exactly, but I would say that the list of
names that I mentioned before.
Q. And that would be?
A. I may not get them all, but I would say Chuck Ruff,
Cheryl Mills, Bruce Lindsey, Lanny Breuer, Jim Kennedy, Mike
McCurry, Joe Lockhart, Adam Goldberg, Don Goldberg, Ann
Lewis, Paul Begala, Rahm Emanuel, myself.
Q. And this occurred about a week after the January 21st
article?
A. I don't recall the exact date.
Q. At least 7 days?
A. Within a week--
Q. Okay.
A. --I believe.
Q. Would it be fair to say that you were sitting there
during this conversation and that you had previously been
told by the President that he was in essence a victim of Ms.
Lewinsky's sexual demands, and you said nothing to anyone?
MR. McDANIEL: Is the question, ``You said''--
THE WITNESS: I don't--
MR. McDANIEL: Is the question, ``You said nothing to anyone
about what the President told you?''?
MR. GRAHAM: Right.
THE WITNESS: I never told any of my colleagues about what
the President told me.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. And this is after the President recants his story--
recounts his story--to you, where he's visibly upset, feels
like he's a victim, that he associates himself with a
character who's being lied about, and you at no time
suggested to your colleagues that there is something going on
here with the President and Ms. Lewinsky you need to know
about. Is that your testimony?
A. I never mentioned my conversation. I regarded that
conversation as a private conversation in confidence, and I
didn't mention it to my colleagues, I didn't mention it to my
friends, I didn't mention it to my family, besides my wife.
Q. Did you mention it to any White House lawyers?
A. I mentioned it many months later to Lanny Breuer in
preparation for one of my grand jury appearances, when I knew
I would be questioned about it. And I certainly never
mentioned it to any reporter.
Q. Do you know how, over a period of weeks, stories about
Ms. Lewinsky being called a stalker, a fantasizer, obsessed
with the President, called the name ``Elvira''--do you know
how that got into the press?
A. Which--which--which question are you asking me? Which
part of that?
Q. Okay. Do you have any idea how White House sources are
associated with statements such as ``She's known as
`Elvira','' ``She's obsessed with the President,'' ``She's
known as a flirt,'' ``She's the product of a troubled home,
divorced parents,'' ``She's known as `The Stalker'''? Do you
have any idea how that got in the press?
MR. BREUER: I'm going to object. The document speaks for
itself, but it's not clear that the terms that Mr. Lindsey
has used are necessarily--any or all of them--are from a
White House source. I object to the form and the
characterization of the question.
MR. GRAHAM: The ones that I have indicated are associated
with the White House as being the source of those statements
and--
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards and I think that question
is appropriate, and the objection is overruled.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea how anything came to be
attributed to a White House source.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Do you know a Mr. Terry Lenzner?
A. I--I met him once.
Q. When did you meet him?
A. I met him outside the grand jury room.
Q. And who is he?
A. He's a private investigator.
Q. And who does he work for?
A. He works for many clients, including the President.
Q. Okay. Mr. Blumenthal, I appreciate your candor here.
Do you know Mr. Harry Evans?
A. Harold Evans?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Who is Mr. Harold Evans?
A. Harold Evans is--I don't know his exact title right now.
He works for Mort Zuckerman, involving his publications, and
he's the husband of my former editor, Tina Brown.
Q. Has he ever worked for the New York Daily News?
MR. BREUER: I'm going to object to this line of
questioning. It seems well beyond the scope of this
deposition. I have never heard of Mr. Harold Evans, and it's
not clear to me that's anywhere in this voluminous record or
any of these issues.
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards and I think it would be
appropriate to have an offer of proof on this, Congressman
Graham.
MR. GRAHAM: I'm going to ask Mr. Blumenthal if he has ever
at any time passed on to Mr. Evans or anyone else raw notes,
notes, work products from a Mr. Terry Lenzner about subjects
of White House investigations to members of the press, to
include Ms. Lewinsky.
SENATOR SPECTER: Relating to Monica Lewinsky?
MR. GRAHAM: Yes, and anyone else.
MR. McDANIEL: That's a good question. I think we don't have
any objection to that question.
SENATOR SPECTER: Well, we still have to rule on it.
Overruled. The objection is overruled.
MR. GRAHAM: All right. Now I think I know the answer.
[Laughter.]
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. So let's phrase it very clearly for the record here. You
know Mr. Evans; correct?
A. I do.
Q. Have you at any time received any notes, work product
from a Mr. Terry Lenzner about anybody?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So, therefore, you had nothing to pass on?
A. Right.
Q. Fair enough. Do you know a Mr. Gene Lyons?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Who is Mr. Gene Lyons?
A. He is a columnist for the Arkansas Democrat Gazette.
Q. Are you familiar with his appearance on ``Meet the
Press'' where he suggests in an article he wrote later that
maybe the President is a victim similar to David Letterman in
terms of somebody following him around, obsessed with him?
A. Is this one of the exhibits?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I wonder if you could refer me to it.
[[Page S1252]]
Q. Sure. I can't read my writing.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Well, while we are looking for the exhibit, let me ask
you this. Do you have any independent knowledge of him making
such a statement?
A. Well, I'd like to see the exhibit so--
Q. Okay.
A. --so I could know exactly what he said.
Q. Okay.
MR. McDANIEL: If I might--Congressman, I don't know whether
the one you're thinking of is--I note in Exhibit 20, there
are--well, it's not a story by Mr. Lyons--
MR. GRAHAM: And that's it.
MR. McDANIEL: There are references to him in--in that
story.
MR. GRAHAM: That's it. Thank you very much.
MR. McDANIEL: You're welcome.
MR. GRAHAM: I appreciate it.
THE WITNESS: This is 20?
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Thank you.
Do you mind if I just read through it?
Q. Yes, sir. Take your time.
A. Thank you. [Witness perusing document.] I've read this.
Q. My question is that this article is a Boston Globe
article, Saturday, February the 21st, and it references an
appearance on ``Meet the Press'' by Mr. Gene Lyons. And I
believe you know who Mr. Gene Lyons is; is that correct?
A. I do.
Q. Did you know who he was in January of 1998?
A. I did.
Q. And in this press appearance, it refers to it being the
Sunday before the Saturday, February 21st, sometime in the
middle of February.
He indicates on the show, at least this article recounts
that he indicates, that the President could be in fact in
``'a totally innocent relationship in which the President
was, in a sense, the victim of someone, rather like the woman
who followed David Letterman around.'''
Do you know how Mr. Lyons would come to that conclusion? I
know word travels fast, but how would he know that? Do you
have any independent knowledge of how he would know that?
A. What exactly is the question?
Q. Well, the question is Mr. Lyons is indicating in the
middle of February that the truth of the matter may very well
be that the President is in an ``innocent relationship in
which the President was, in a sense, the victim of someone,
rather like the woman who followed David Letterman around,''
and the question is that scenario of the President being a
victim of someone obsessed seems rather like the conversation
you had with the President on January the 21st. Do you know
how Mr. Lyons would have had that take on things?
MR. McDANIEL: Well, I object to a question that sort of
loads up premises, Senators. That question sort of, you know,
says, well, this conversation is a lot like the one you had
with the President, and then asks the question. And the
danger to the witness is that he'll--by answering the
question accepts the premise.
And I ask that if you want to ask him whether it's like the
conversation with the President, that's a fair question,
he'll answer it, but it ought to be broken out of there.
[Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.]
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards and I disagree on the
ruling, so we're going to take Senator Edwards and ask you to
rephrase the question since it--
[Laughter.]
MR. GRAHAM: Fair enough.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. The characterization embodied here indicates this could
be a totally innocent relationship in which the President was
in a sense the victim of someone. Is it fair to say, Mr.
Blumenthal, that is very much like the scenario the President
painted to you when you talked with him on January the 21st?
A. It could be like that.
Q. Okay. And it goes on further: ``rather like the woman
who followed David Letterman around.'' Is that very much like
the characterization the President indicated to you between
him and Ms. Lewinsky?
A. Could be.
Q. Did you ever at any time talk with Mr. Gene Lyons about
Ms. Lewinsky or any other person that was the subject of a
relationship with the President?
A. I did talk to Gene Lyons about Monica Lewinsky.
Q. Could you tell us what you told him?
A. He asked me my views, and I told him, in no uncertain
terms, that I wouldn't talk about her personally. I talked
about Monica Lewinsky with all sorts of people, my mother, my
friends, about what was in the news stories every day, just
like everyone else, but when it came to talking about her
personally, I drew a line.
Q. So, when you talk to your mother and your friends and
Mr. Lyons about Ms. Lewinsky, are you telling us that you
have these conversations, and you know what the President has
told you and you're not tempted to tell somebody the
President is a victim of this lady, out of his own mouth?
A. Not only am I not tempted, I did not.
Q. You don't know how all this information came out? You
have no knowledge of it at all?
MR. McDANIEL: I don't understand the question about--
MR. GRAHAM: About her being a stalker, her being obsessed
with the President, the President being like David Letterman
in relationship to her.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. You had no knowledge of how that all happened in the
press?
A. I have an idea how it started in the press.
Q. Well, please share that with us.
A. I believe it started on January 21st with the
publication of an article in Newsweek by Michael Isikoff that
was posted on the World Wide Web and faxed around to everyone
in the news media, in Washington, New York, everywhere, and
in the White House. And in that article, Michael Isikoff
reported the contents of what became known as the talking
points.
And there was a mystery at the time about who wrote the
talking points. We know subsequently that Monica Lewinsky
wrote the talking points. And in that document, the author of
the talking points advises Linda Tripp that she might refer
to someone who was stalking the ``P'', meaning the President,
and after that story appeared, I believe there were a flood
of stories and discussions about this, starting on
``Nightline'' that very night and ``Nightline'' the next
night and so on. And that's my understanding from observing
the media of how this started.
Q. How long have you been involved in the media yourself?
A. Before I joined the White House staff, I was a
journalist for 27 years.
Q. Is it your testimony that the Isikoff article on the
21st explains how White House sources contact reporters in
late January and mid-February trying to explain that the
President is a victim of a stalker, an obsessed young lady,
who is the product of a broken home? Is that your testimony?
A. No.
MR. BREUER: I'm going to object to the form of the
question. There is no evidence that White House officials,
both in January and in February, if at any time, contacted
sources, press sources.
MR. GRAHAM: I will introduce these articles. The articles
are dated with White House sources, unsolicited, calling
about this event, saying these things in January and
February.
MR. BREUER: Well--
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards and I agree that the
question may be asked and answered. Overruled.
THE WITNESS: If you could restate it, please?
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Is it your testimony that the White House sources that
are being referred to by the press are a result of the 21st
of January Isikoff article? That's not what you're saying, is
it?
A. No.
MR. McDANIEL: Well--
MR. GRAHAM: Thank you.
MR. McDANIEL: --I don't think that there ought to be
argument with Mr. Blumenthal. I think he ought to be asked a
question and given an opportunity to answer it, and that's an
argumentative question and followed up by, ``That's not what
you're saying, is it?''
I also think the questions are remarkably imprecise, in
that they do not specify what information it is this
questioner is seeking to get Mr. Blumenthal to talk about,
and in that regard, I think the questions are both irrelevant
and unfair.
SENATOR EDWARDS: Are you objecting to a question that's
already been asked and answered?
MR. McDANIEL: I might be, Senator, and I had that feeling
when I heard Mr. Blumenthal say something, that I might be
doing that.
MR. GRAHAM: That would be my reply. He understood what I
asked, and he answered, and I'll accept his answer and we'll
move on.
SENATOR SPECTER: Well, I think the objection is mooted at
this point.
MR. GRAHAM: Okay.
SENATOR SPECTER: I do--I do think that to the extent you
can be more precise, because these articles do contain--
MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SPECTER: --a lot of information. We're still
looking for that laser.
MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. And these--and the reason this comes up, Mr. Isikoff--
excuse me--Mr. Blumenthal, is you've referenced the Isikoff
article on the 21st, and my question goes to White House
sources indicating that Ms. Lewinsky is a stalker, the
January 30th article, that she's obsessed with the President,
that she wears tight skirts.
What I'm trying to say is that you--you are not saying--it
is not your testimony--that those White House sources are
picking up on the 21st article, are you?
A. I don't know about any White House sources on these
stories.
Q. When you talked to Mr. Lyons, you never mentioned what
time at all that Ms. Lewinsky was making demands on the
President and he had to rebuff her?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. You never at one time told Mr. Lyons or anyone else that
the President felt like that he was a victim much like the
person in the novel, Darkness at Noon?
MR. McDANIEL: Well, I object to that question. This witness
has testified that he told his wife and that he told White
House counsel at a later date, and the question included
anyone else. So I think it--
MR. GRAHAM: Yes. Strike that.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Excluding those two people?
A. Well, I believe I've asked--I've been asked, and
answered that, and I haven't told anyone else.
[[Page S1253]]
Q. Was there--
A. I didn't tell anyone else.
Q. Was there ever an investigation at the White House about
how these stories came out, supposedly?
A. No.
Q. Was anybody ever fired?
A. No.
MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Blumenthal.
THE WITNESS: I thank you.
MR. ROGAN: No further questions.
MR. BREUER: Could we take a 5-minute break, Senator?
SENATOR SPECTER: We can. We will recess for 5 minutes.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record at 11:24 a.m.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going on the record at 11:40 a.m.
SENATOR SPECTER: Turn to White House counsel, Mr. Lanny
Breuer.
MR. BREUER: Senators, the White House has no questions for
Mr. Blumenthal.
SENATOR SPECTER: We had deferred one line of questions
which had been subject objection and considerable conference,
and we put it at the end of the transcript so it could be
excised. Do you wish to--
MR. GRAHAM: Yes.
SENATOR SPECTER: --proceed further?
MR. BREUER: May we approach off the record, Senators?
SENATOR SPECTER: Off the record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record at 11:41 a.m.
[Discussion off the record.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back on the record at 12:10
p.m.
SENATOR SPECTER: The Senators have considered the matter,
and in light of the references, albeit abbreviated, in the
record and the generalization that answers--questions and
answers would be permitted, reserving the final judgment to
the full Senate, we will permit Congressman Graham to
question on pattern and practice with respect to Ms. Willey.
MR. GRAHAM: Okay. Thank you.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY HOUSE MANAGERS
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Mr. Blumenthal, we're really close to the end here. If
you could turn to Tab 5, page 193.
A. We have it.
Q. Okay, thank you.
And page 20, the last question, it's in the right-hand
corner. I'll read the question, and we'll kind of follow the
testimony. ``Have you ever had a discussion with people in
the White House or been present during any meeting where the
allegation has come up that other women are fabricating an
affair with the President?''
Now, could you read the answer for me, please?
A. Sure. My--my answer in the grand jury is this: ``We've
discussed news stories that arose out of the Jones case,
which was dismissed by the judge as having no basis, in which
there were allegations made against the President, and these
were stories that were in the press.''
Q. ``And you''--''And did you discuss those with the
President?''
You said, ``No.''
And the next question is: ``So what form did you discuss
those news stories in?''
And your answer was?
A. ``In strategy meetings.''
Q. Okay. ``And that would include the daily meetings, the
morning and the evening meetings?''
A. Yes.
Q. And your answer was ``Yes.''
Now, within that context, I want to walk through a bit how
those strategy meetings came about and the purpose of the
strategy meetings.
The next question goes as follows: ``And there were names
of the women that you discussed in that context that there
had been news stories about and public allegations of an
affair with the President?''
And your answer was?
A. ``As I recall, we discussed Paula Jones, Kathleen
Willey, we've discussed''--and the rest is redacted.
Q. Redacted--and that's fine, that's fine.
And the question later on, on line 24: ``When you say that
that was a complete and utter fraudulent allegation--'', the
answer is: ``In my view, yes.'' Right?
A. Well--
Q. About a woman?
MR. McDANIEL: Senator, I must object to this, because I
believe that question, clearly from the context, refers to
redacted material--
MR. GRAHAM: Right.
MR. McDANIEL: --which has been preserved as secret by the
grand jury, and I think it's somewhat misleading to talk
about a fraudulent allegation that the grand jury heard that
Mr. Blumenthal testified about, which is clearly not in the
record before the Senate.
SENATOR SPECTER: Well, it is unclear on the face of the
record. So, Congressman Graham, if you could--
MR. GRAHAM: The point I'm trying--
SENATOR SPECTER: --excuse me, let me just finish--
MR. GRAHAM: Yes.
SENATOR SPECTER: --if you could specify on what is on the
record that you've put in up to now.
MR. GRAHAM: Okay. What I'm reading from, Senator, is--is a
question and answer and a redacted name, and the point I'm
trying to make is ever who that person was, the allegation
was considered to be fraudulent based on your prior
testimony.
THE WITNESS: That was--that was my testimony, that it was
my view.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. And that leads to this question. Was there ever a
discussion in these strategy meetings where there was an
admission that the allegation was believed to be true against
the President in terms of relationship with other women?
MR. BREUER: I'm going to object to the form of the question
in that it's referring to other women. Even based on the
discussion that went off the record, I think that what Mr.
Graham is doing now is certainly beyond any record in this
case.
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards would like to hear the
question repeated.
MR. GRAHAM: The strategy meetings--
SENATOR SPECTER: Good idea?
MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. The strategy meetings involved press accounts of
allegations between the President and other women. The
question is very simple. At any of those meetings, was it
ever conceded that the President did have in fact a
relationship?
MR. BREUER: Object. I object to the question for the
reasons I just previously stated.
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards raises the concern that I
think he's correct on, that we have limited it to Willey, Ms.
Willey. So, if you would--if you would focus--
MR. GRAHAM: Absolutely.
SENATOR SPECTER: --there--
MR. GRAHAM: Absolutely.
SENATOR SPECTER: --it would be within your proffer and what
we have permitted.
MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. Very well.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. In regards to Ms. Willey, is it fair to say that the
consensus of the group was that these allegations were not
true?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you recall Ms. Willey giving a ``60 Minutes''
interview?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall any discussions after the interview at a
strategy meeting about Ms. Willey?
MR. BREUER: I want the record to be clear that the White
House has a continuing objection as to this line of inquiry.
SENATOR SPECTER: The record will so note.
THE WITNESS: If you could repeat the question, please.
MR. GRAHAM: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Sorry.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. After the ``60 Minutes'' interview, was there ever a
strategy meeting about what she said?
A. At one of the morning or evening meetings, we discussed
the ``60 Minutes'' interview.
Q. And can you--I--I know it's hard because these meetings
go on a lot. How--do you know who was there on that occasion,
who would be the players that would be there?
A. They would be the same as before. I'd be happy to
enumerate them for you, if you want me to.
Q. But the same as you previously testified to?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, that's fine.
Do you recall what the discussions were about in terms of
how to respond to the ``60 Minutes'' story?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell us?
A. They were what our official spokes-people would say.
Q. Did they include anything else?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you please tell us?
A. There was a considerable complaining about how, in the
``60 Minutes'' broadcast, Bob Bennett was not given adequate
time to speak and present his case, and how he was, as I
recall, poorly lighted.
Q. Was there any discussion about what Ms. Willey said
herself and how that should be responded to?
A. I don't recall exactly. We just spoke about what our
official spokespeople should respond to.
Q. Did anybody ever discuss the fact that Ms. Willey may
have had a checkered past?
A. No, absolutely not. We never discussed the personal
lives of any woman in those meetings.
Q. Did it ever come up as to, well, here's what we know
about Kathleen Willey and the President, or let's go see what
we can find out about Kathleen Willey and the President?
A. No.
Q. Who had the letters that Kathleen Willey wrote to the
President?
A. I don't know exactly. The White House had them.
Q. Isn't it fair to say that somebody found those letters,
kept those letters, and was ready to respond with those
letters, if needed to be?
MR. BREUER: I'm going to object to the form of the question
that it's outside the proffer of the Manager.
[Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.]
MR. McDANIEL: Yes. I object to the compound nature of the
question, and--
SENATOR SPECTER: Could you rephrase the question,
Congressman Lindsey--
MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SPECTER: --or, Graham?
MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SPECTER: I think that would solve your problem.
[[Page S1254]]
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. There were letters written to Ms. Willey to the
President that were released to the media. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who gathered those letters up and how they
were gathered up?
MR. BREUER: Objection.
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards and I agree that the
Congressman may ask the question. Overruled.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Would it be fair to say, using common sense, that
somebody was planning to answer Ms. Willey by having those
letters to offer to the press?
MR. BREUER: Objection.
MR. McDANIEL: It's argumentative.
MR. BREUER: It certainly is.
SENATOR SPECTER: Would you repeat that question?
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. The question is: Mr. Blumenthal, do you believe it's a
fair assumption to make that somebody in the White House made
a conscious effort to go seek out the letters between the
President and Ms. Willey and use in response to her
allegations?
[Senators Specter and Edwards conferring.]
THE WITNESS: Well, that's an opin--
MS. MARSH: Wait, wait, wait.
MR. McDANIEL: Please, Mr. Blumenthal.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
SENATOR SPECTER: Senator Edwards says, and I agree with
him, that you ought to direct it to somebody with specific
knowledge so you don't--
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Do you have any knowledge--
SENATOR SPECTER: --deal totally with speculation.
BY MR. GRAHAM:
Q. Do you have any specific knowledge of that event
occurring, somebody gathering the letters up, having them
ready to be able to respond to Ms. Willey if she ever said
anything?
A. No.
Q. You have no knowledge whatsoever of how those letters
came into the possession of the White House to be released to
the press?
A. No, I don't. I don't know--
MR. GRAHAM: Thank you. I--
THE WITNESS: --who had them--
MR. GRAHAM: --don't have any--
THE WITNESS: --in the White House.
MR. GRAHAM: --further questions.
____________________
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