Rugby Star Jonny Wilkinson's TalkAsia Interview
August 7th, 2004
(SG) -- Stan Grant
(JW) -- Jonny Wilkinson
SG: He is to rugby, what David Beckham is, to football. This, is TalkAsia. Welcome to TalkAsia. I'm Stan Grant sitting in for Lorraine Hahn. British rugby idol Jonny Wilkinson is our guest this week. His famous drop goal at last year's Rugby World Cup final will forever be legendary. With only 20 seconds remaining deep in over time, Wilkinson snatched away the cup from host and title-holder Australia. And not only gave the Northern Hemisphere its first rugby world cup but broke England's dry-run of almost four decades without a world cup title. That one kick has immortalized Wilkinson in the eyes of rugby fans around the world. At 25, the famous Fly half is considered one of the best, most respected and most feared, at his game.
Jonny was in Hong Kong recently as part of his Asia Tour with Adidas. We're going to spend the next half hour finding out what that historic moment was like for him, and what's made him become such a formidable player. But, first things first.
SG: Well as an Australian I have to say this first of all: Why couldn't you miss?
JW: Well I did, I gave you three chances but the last one went over, and I've thought about that a lot actually I've thought about what if it hadn't worked out or if Matt Dawson had scored before I got the chance to kick it. But I am very grateful for the opportunity to at least have something to show for all the practicing.
SG: But you couldn't have scripted it any better, like you were saying: had someone scored before hand, you wouldn't have got the shot, and it wouldn't have been the cliffhanger that it was, you wouldn't have got the shot it wouldn't have been, but to come down to that and all those years on the practice field, to come down to that moment, at the world cup, there must have been a sense of destiny about it really
JW: Yeah I, sort of, live by the ethos that things have to happen for a reason. You know we got beaten by Australia 76-nil five years ago, or yes, 6 years ago. At the time it was tough but you come to accept it must happen for a reason: either that reason was to show me that I didn't want to be in rugby any more or it was to show me that I had to come back stronger. When it happened it gave me the chance to make a decision and be stronger for it and I like to think it happened for a reason. And the tour that England have just been on, maybe that's happened for a reason too: its just nice to be able to get a reward as such for thinking that you're doing the right thing and maybe keeping you on the right lines.
SG: Its interesting you say that because as a result of that there was a lot of criticism during the world cup that you were playing 'boring rugby': it was rugby to win rather than rugby to watch, or enjoy. Was that fair enough?
JW: I think its tough, because we were desperate to win: we were desperate to win at all costs therefore you have to make the decisions, when it comes to penalties you tend to kick them over. On the other hand people were stopping us playing, on the other hand you weren't playing as well as we would have liked. But if people stop you from playing then you have to score your points some other way. We weren't playing well and we understood that but we rectified it as the tournament went on but we had to fight hard, and I think that helped us.
SG: Was it the expectation of winning, or was it the fear of losing, do you think, that was really motivating you at this stage?
JW: I think the fear of letting each other down; for wasting what we'd come through together as a team; a fear of wasting all the effort, and all the hard times; a fear of wasting all those grand-slam defeats, those final games over and over again; all that disappointment that had been stored in the bank to look back on to motivate us; a fear of wasting all that energy and those hard, hard times -- long evenings, early mornings, whatever, and of course fear of letting each other down.
SG: All that fear, and then all that expectation then comes down to that one moment: is that something you've relived time and again, is it something still fresh in your mind?
JW: Its strange that because I try not to think about that too often.
SG: Because people often say, with something like that, time slows down. Is that the effect it had?
JW: Oh I think it... I have to admit after I kicked it, and as I watching it go through, after I realized that that one had a good shout, I knew I'd missed the other. There was one close one which I thought might go through but I looked up and I knew it was heading wide: that I knew I should get it and I knew once I kicked it, I had. Once I looked up it went into a bit of slow motion you know, I was looking for the ref trying to make sure there were no penalties anywhere and it was all kind of surreal. And then when I looked around I couldn't believe the situation we were in; I couldn't believe that Australia had drawn level, and in a minute and a half to go we'd scored three more points and reality quickly set back in when I quickly realized there was still twenty seconds left or something. But When Mike Cat smashed that ball out into the crowd it was incredible you know: I relive that moment not so much the drop goal but I relive the moment of the relief of seeing Mike Cat. I like to see not the final whistle, but the ball in the air, I'd like to hold that moment on pause: knowing that what was to come and not the celebrations, and not the finished article, but just before: I like that.
SG: And it wasn't just a world-cup win but a win for England, which had not won anything for a very long time. There was a real sense that this was for the whole country, whether they were rugby followers or not.
JW: Yeah I think its been a long period of some great performances, and lots to remember, some fantastic moments, but not quite the whole thing and we were close to being along the same lines. Against Western Samoa, you know, fantastic performance by them, we held on, Wales again. After that we kind of found our feet. But in those moments the margin for falling away and losing or finding the strength to win is tiny. And it might just be that tiny bit of mental strength when everyone pulls together for two minutes of the game that changes your life.
SG: Up next on TalkAsia: how rugby was an obsession for Jonny, since his early childhood days.
Block B
SG: Welcome back to TalkAsia and our conversation with British rugby icon Jonny Wilkinson. At the tender age of eight, Jonny and his famous left foot were already showing signs of greater things to come. By 15 he was playing for England for the under 16s, and was signed by the Newcastle Falcons, soon after. At 18, Jonny made his professional international debut, making him England's youngest player in history. I asked him when he realised-that rugby was going to be his destiny?
JW: I don't know: I just knew when I was younger that when I played the game its all I wanted to do and I loved doing it, and I'm one of those people that before the whistle goes I'm as nervous as any individual you'll find. I worry about everything, every possible stone that I turn -- anything that's possibly out of my control - I used to worry about: I can try and keep it within things I can control, but I used to be nervous as hell and as soon as the whistle would go I would turn into a different person. I used to say sometimes -- fear, and all the part before the game, all I wanted was that initial whistle, and then that would give me the right to be the other person and its that other person that plays the games.
SG: And was the other person there even while the seven or eight year old was playing the games?
JW: Yeah definitely.
SG: It was?
JW: Definitely. It is now, and I've said it for a long time, its like two personalities. One personality does all the preparation, giving strength to the other personality, which takes to the field. Because I'm not an aggressive person in any way but as soon as the whistle goes I will do anything, I will do anything to win, I will do anything for my team-mates, for the right to come off victorious and to be able to say I've done myself proud and not let anyone down.
SG: And that was there from a very early age.
JW: I think from an early age I was one of those kids who, if I had one phrase that summed me up it would be 'Just one more': that's all I was about, every time I went out to practice.
SG: Because that's unusual, you say that sitting here now, but I can imagine when its cold, dark, its wet and miserable and you're hungry and other people are out having fun, and that's what keeps you there: that vision...
JW: I didn't think about the other things all I thought about was I knew I wouldn't be happy, I knew I wouldn't be able to relax that evening; I wouldn't have the peace of mind to sleep till I had left content with what I started and my mum used to pick me up from school and drive me straight to the pitch and sit there for an hour, an hour and a half, reading a book. Even after two hours she'd say 'look we really need to go' I'd say 'Just give me one more kick'. It's only now that the situation has kicked in where people start understanding before it was a case of I would just ask for one more, 'give me five more minutes, I know I've got it but I just need to do it'.
SG: You mention your family, none of it would be possible without them would it? But tell us about the sacrifices and the belief that a family has to have in someone. Especially a young kid who's out there and they're going to be scratching their heads and wondering what he's doing and whether it's all worth it. Where does that come from?
JW: I think from my point of view, or from my experience, I had an amazing upbringing, in that I was totally supported, and I knew that my father and my mother, obviously, and my brother -- who I live with now -- are probably the few people that I listen to. I've got a kicking coach, David Raurice, who's also with Adidas, and they're probably the group that I listen to when it comes to my professional career. If my dad tells me-- I think you're kicking too much - but if someone else tells me I carry on... Dave always says 'You need to come off the field now, because you're getting counter-productive' then I'll listen. It takes ages for me to build up that respect for people, and Dave Raurice is one of those, but with my family I've always had it, they've always been there for me. You know like I say my Mum used to miss whatever she wanted to do just to drive me miles and sit there in the cold and wait for me to do what I had and pick me up from training when I'd been there too long and my brother would have to drop his plans and come and catch balls for me and kick them back. Incidentally he's a fantastic kicker now.
SG: And you've said in the past playing with him was a real highlight. It was very important.
JW: Yeah definitely we spent a lot of time kicking. He's an unbelievable kicker now -- I don't know if he ever wanted to be but he was forced to be from having to kick balls back to me! He's playing for Newcastle now and he's playing well, better and better with everyday and its become a slightly different dream because its not necessarily about winning that one; I've got what I want to achieve, but on that side that's a real happiness for me. People talk about 'do you enjoy rugby?' and I always say 'Yeah afterwards, when its all over and I can say 'I've faced that challenge.' But with my brother I enjoy it at the time and that's what I want more of, being out there on the field and to look up and say 'This is what I want to do and where I want to be' and I've always been too involved to actually think that, and with my brother out there -- I do stop and think how amazing my life's worked out and how lucky I've been.
SG: Just ahead on TalkAsia- How Jonny handles the intense spotlight, and public scrutiny.
BLOCK C
SG: You're back with TalkAsia and our conversation with England's famous fly half, Jonny Wilkinson. Prior to 2003, Jonny was already a formidable player. But England's historic win at last year's rugby world cup, thanks to his drop goal, has propelled him to superstardom. He was named the International Rugby Board's "Player of the Year", and BBC's "Sports Personality of the Year" for 2003. And has been described by some, as England's greatest sports star of our age. I asked him his thoughts on that.
JW: I don't know about that!
SG: You're a winner. That's what they're referring to.
JW: I think I've been lucky enough to be part of a winning team. A winning team in terms of family and friends but also in terms of being with the England guys, you know, Martin Johnson, Lawrence Dallalio, Will Greenwood, Jason Robinson all these sort of guys, we created a winning atmosphere together and we've got to do that again. So its nice to be part of that, but I've lost games, I've lost big games, I've not done myself proud, and I've hated some of my performances in some games, and I've lost things, but the important thing is that I'm trying to strive to be better myself, day in day out, and that, to me, is what keeps me happy.
SG: But you cross a line, you crossed the line after the world cup, where you weren't seen just as a sporting hero but you become a public figure, or public commodity really. I know your friends with David Beckham, you must know what he has experienced and say 'Is this a thing I can live up to, is this the sort of thing I can endure -- this public scrutiny?'
JW: Oh I've said for a long time I've got enormous respect for how he deals with what must be an incredible lifestyle -- there's no other word to say it. It must be incredible. Not necessarily incredibly good, but just incredible. What he must face every day. What was a great European championships, and what I thought for England was just very very unlucky. And a great championship for him as well.
SG: Now I'm not going to ask you to comment on his personal life, and I wouldn't expect you to answer, but when you look at the kind of personal scrutiny he undergoes, and his family, -- is that the sort of thing that makes you wonder about the public fame aspect. Does it make you wonder -- Is this the sort of thing I will have to deal with at some point? You know, you're built up, then you're torn down?
JW: I think my image or personality, is always going to be, hopefully, a good barrier and I think it will protect me from that because I'm not necessarily particularly interesting to people. There's only so many times you can watch me kick and fair play there's only a number of times you can hear the way I live my life, it doesn't get... I'm not building up to anything, I'm going to go the same way I've have done I really enjoy my life, I love doing this like this, this is incredible for me with Adidas here I love that kind of opportunity but it's a fairly big one off for this year me coming here. To be honest my life revolves around doing my training, being relaxed, being around my family in my country.
SG: Staying out of the celebrity that absolutely...
JW: Staying out of that. Just hanging around with my friends and my family that I have all this trust in, trying to achieve what I want to achieve in a sporting world, before I move on to whatever my life holds for me. It will always be the same as that it won't change. That's not necessarily particularly exciting to other people so hopefully that will be the barrier that allows me to keep private things private.
SG: Lets look what life has in store for you You're not playing rugby, you've been out injured, and since the world cup its fair to say its been disappointing for England. Is it hard for you to sit and watch the team playing now, you're not there, and to see them get beaten?
JW: Its hard watching rugby whether teams win or lose, you know, I've been watching Newcastle win games and lose games, I've been watching England win games and unfortunately lose games, its hard not being able to be there. As much as I've always said there's a great deal of pain and nervousness I feel before playing such big games for England, its where I want to be, and its where I'm desperate to remain for as long as possible.
SG: And you know when you're world champions everyone is desperate to beat you. And everyone's out to criticize you as well: I read a description of you the other day where the English team was described as playing 'thugby' - becoming very aggressive and coming out to injure, or hurt, or maim the opposition. Is that fair enough?
JW: No, I would have thought the opposite. I mean I haven't been involved in this squad for a long time and its difficult. All I can say is that I know what the players are going through personally, because I've been there, I've had the grand slam defeats and I've had the 76-nil and I know that being out there and being beaten, the way its been beaten is tough. You don't want to see them go through this pain, but ultimately they'll all be stronger for it as well.
SG: Now I can't go without asking you about another ambition you have: football player now but rock star a bit further down the line yeah?
JW: I very much doubt it! I don' think that's going to shade me from private life.
SG: But you're interested in music, you play a bit of guitar?
JW: I am yeah, I decided to take up as an idea to try and give myself something to sort of engross myself in, or to let it embrace me and to take me away from rugby. I used to, when I was a young professional playing rugby, I'd train all day used to go home, whack the TV on and that would be enough, and just sit there watching TV and lose myself in it. But as I got slightly more used to... or slightly more... improved my way of dealing with the rugby I needed more to take my mind of it. Sitting there with the TV...
SG: and music does that?
JW: Yeah...
SG: Are you good now?
JW I'm getting better but I keep hitting plateaus where I wonder where I go next. My brother plays the drums and I sort... I think it would be nice to have something like that in the background. When I get something in my mind, I find it hard not to get obsessive about it if it means something to me. I've got a few little projects which have been keeping me alive really while I've been injured, its been hard, like you say, to sit around waiting, waiting for a nerve that comes back on its own. That's been tough so I've been enjoying having a few things ticking over keeping me very much with a smile on my face.
SG: The good thing for us if you get better at playing the guitar and if you are as dedicated at that than you are at football, you will be, you can start leaving us Aussies alone and we can get on with winning rugby games again!
JW: Well I think you're doing a good job of that anyway...
SG: British rugby star, Jonny Wilkinson. Now, Jonny's been off the field for most of the year because of a shoulder injury. But he says he'll start training again in August, and hopes to be back on the field, in November. Well we look forward to seeing his footwork, his tackles, and of course, his famous drop goals again, very soon. And that is TalkAsia this week. Thank you very much for joining us. I'm Stan Grant.
